Is Graphic Rape a new Trope in the Post Apoc Genre

[idontknowyet]

I am a great lover of the Romance Genre, but my guilty pleasure lately is reading Zombie/Post Apoc books. The last two book that I have read added graphic rape scenes, but not just that it gets better (insert sarcasm). Now the main lead is just watching it an walking away saying its ok I need to look out for myself and not worry about others.

Now I am aware that lawlessness is a common trope in post apoc even the suggestion of rape by bad men, but it has always been that the good people stood up and protected those in trouble, or felt terrible guilt when they couldn't help.

Lets just say I DNF both those books and was soo tempted to 1 star both those books for offensive content, but since its been more than 1 book I've seen it in and very recently is this becoming a common (vile) trope in the genre.

[She-la-te-da]

I don't think it's new, maybe getting more "popular", at least with writers. It's pretty much expected that women will be raped in this sort of book. I try to avoid the "rape as a character builder" thing.

It's "trope", by the way. Troupe is a group of performers.

[boyd]

I am a great lover of the Romance Genre, but my guilty pleasure lately is reading Zombie/Post Apoc books. The last two book that I have read added graphic rape scenes, but not just that it gets better (insert sarcasm). Now the main lead is just watching it an walking away saying its ok I need to look out for myself and not worry about others.

Now I am aware that lawlessness is a common troupe in post apoc even the suggestion of rape by bad men, but it has always been that the good people stood up and protected those in trouble, or felt terrible guilt when they couldn't help.

Lets just say I DNF both those books and was soo tempted to 1 star both those books for offensive content, but since its been more than 1 book I've seen it in and very recently is this becoming a common (vile) troupe in the genre.

Back in the 80's, William Johnstone's "Ashes" series got into graphic rape of women and children.  I enjoy the books, just skip past those parts.  Fast forward, rape happens in the tropes of the genre, but most graphic things like sex, rape, torture or slow murder are avoided. The base of readers is more conservative and slightly more religious than it was thirty years ago. I use the "Ashes" book as an example, because Johnstone actually brought up a lot of subjects that now seem taboo.

[Travelian]

I can't speak to fiction, but rape in post apoc film can be traced at least as far back as Mad Max. The majority of the post apoc films I'd catch on cable TV included rape, which is probably a big reason I now have almost zero interest in the genre - film or fiction.

[idontknowyet]

It's "trope", by the way. Troupe is a group of performers.

Thanks! Corrected them I think.

[Becca Mills]

I am a great lover of the Romance Genre, but my guilty pleasure lately is reading Zombie/Post Apoc books. The last two book that I have read added graphic rape scenes, but not just that it gets better (insert sarcasm). Now the main lead is just watching it an walking away saying its ok I need to look out for myself and not worry about others.

Now I am aware that lawlessness is a common trope in post apoc even the suggestion of rape by bad men, but it has always been that the good people stood up and protected those in trouble, or felt terrible guilt when they couldn't help.

Lets just say I DNF both those books and was soo tempted to 1 star both those books for offensive content, but since its been more than 1 book I've seen it in and very recently is this becoming a common (vile) trope in the genre.

Huh. I guess it could be an interesting way to develop the MC as very damaged/hardened, but you'd have to do something significant with that idea as the book went on. If the reader is just supposed to buy into the MC's indifference, well, that seems like it'd be a tough sell. I'd think it'd put you pretty firmly in anti-hero territory.

[veinglory]

I suspect it has as much, if not more, to do with there being a readership for rape porn that most erotica self or trade publishers choose not to cater to.  And also being outside of the erotica genre makes them unlikely to fall afoul of US obscenity laws.

[Alice Sabo]

No wonder my clean, rebuilding, post apoc story doesn't sell that well.

[idontknowyet]

No wonder my clean, rebuilding, post apoc story doesn't sell that well.

Don't just tease do tell. what is your book. I'm always on the look out.

Looked you up. You have great reviews and I love your title.

[Alice Sabo]

No wonder my clean, rebuilding, post apoc story doesn't sell that well.

Don't just tease do tell. what is your book. I'm always on the look out.

Thanks for the interest. Lethal Seasons is book 1. Available wide.

[idontknowyet]

No wonder my clean, rebuilding, post apoc story doesn't sell that well.

Don't just tease do tell. what is your book. I'm always on the look out.

Thanks for the interest. Lethal Seasons is book 1. Available wide.

Being wide probably hurts a lot in that genre. I personally buy my favorite post apoc books and reread them, but ku makes it easier to sort through and find good stories.

[Alice Sabo]

Being wide probably hurts a lot in that genre. I personally buy my favorite post apoc books and reread them, but ku makes it easier to sort through and find good stories.
[/quote]

I get a dribble of sales from all over. I was in KU for awhile but the reads fell off the cliff so I figured it was time to move on.

[DrewMcGunn]

Before I started publishing, I read a fair amount of TEOTWAWKI and SITF books and for the most part, those were men's action fiction. God helped the writer who mentioned a character flipping the safety off on his glock.

But, yeah. Rape certainly was a common trope in some of the post-apocalyptic fiction I stumbled upon.

I mention the glock because on my own stories, my better half mentioned that I didn't need to tell the reader the character was holding a .38 Paterson Colt Revolver more than once.
After that, it was pistol, revolver, weapon, etc...

I do think the post-apocalyptic genre has fragmented more than it was. I agree with the earlier poster that the readership tends to be a bit older and more conservative or religious than it used to be.

[sliderule]

I worked out what TEOTWAWKI stood for, but what's SITF?

[KGupton]

Wild guess on my part, but I'd say "Somewhere in the future," which will now send me off singing the intro song to MST3K in my head for the rest of the day..."In the not-too-distant future..."

[WasAnn]

I've written a relatively clean nanite-zombie post apoc series. For a long time it did well, bookbubs, etc, but it fell off the radar because there is no graphic rape or any of that business. (Between Life and Death) In one book, a character does get captured by bad people and we know that happened, but it's not on screen. And what happens to those character is just...well...hard justice.

The genre has become rapidly tilted into "men's naughty adventures." It's simply overrun with that in PA, Apoc, and Z. I think originally it was almost put as a warning that humans are the worst monsters type of thing, but honestly, it wouldn't be so darned graphic and so common if it wasn't giving them something they wanted.

No offense to guys in a general sense meant. It's a small group, but they devour their books.

[DrewMcGunn]

I worked out what TEOTWAWKI stood for, but what's SITF?

Sh**, uh, stuff hitting the fan.
Mia Culpa... It should have been SHTF...
 :embarrassed:

[LilyBLily]

I had to look up "the end of the world as we know it."

Now I know I should steer clear of post-apoc novels.

I was very disappointed in a novelization from an old TV series (edited: it was Highlander) in which the protagonist did nothing to help anyone. I thought he was a poor excuse for a hero and not worth the pages spent on his story.

Of course, if you live long enough you'll reach the end of the world as you knew it. Only without zombies.

[Tulonsae]

No wonder my clean, rebuilding, post apoc story doesn't sell that well.

Good to know. Just bought it.

[WasAnn]

I had to look up "the end of the world as we know it."

Now I know I should steer clear of post-apoc novels.

I was very disappointed in a novelization from an old TV series (I think it had time travel and the actor was a Sean Connery lookalike) in which the protagonist did nothing to help anyone. I thought he was a poor excuse for a hero and not worth the pages spent on his story.

Of course, if you live long enough you'll reach the end of the world as you knew it. Only without zombies.

I hope not, because there are some amazing ones out there, including a bunch written for an entirely different audience than that. Some of them are amazing and will bring huge tears to your eyes. Half Way Home and WOOL by Hugh Howey are technically PA.

[idontknowyet]

I had to look up "the end of the world as we know it."

Now I know I should steer clear of post-apoc novels.

I was very disappointed in a novelization from an old TV series (I think it had time travel and the actor was a Sean Connery lookalike) in which the protagonist did nothing to help anyone. I thought he was a poor excuse for a hero and not worth the pages spent on his story.

Of course, if you live long enough you'll reach the end of the world as you knew it. Only without zombies.

I hope not, because there are some amazing ones out there, including a bunch written for an entirely different audience than that. Some of them are amazing and will bring huge tears to your eyes. Half Way Home and WOOL by Hugh Howey are technically PA.

Strangest thing I was reading post apoc in wool's heyday. Everyone was gaga over it but I just couldn't get into it not even a little bit. Downloaded it like 4x. Read the first page and deleted it. Cant even remember why but I kept wanting to like it.

[Edward M. Grant]

I don't think it's new, maybe getting more "popular", at least with writers. It's pretty much expected that women will be raped in this sort of book.

While that's true--I've read post-apocalyptic fiction on-and-off for over twenty years, though not recently--it was rarely done in a graphic manner when I was still reading it. If it happened, it was mostly another motivation for the hero to hate the bad guys.

[She-la-te-da]

I've seen some books that weren't so much graphic (as in, every little detail like it was an erotica book), but still, the women got raped. It was clearly on-page. Even kids. Sometimes guys. I'd rather not see this sort of thing, since it's often used for women as their motivation to become "strong" and seek revenge. Women can be strong without having been assaulted for their backstory.

My own zompoc/PA books don't have rape. I do have an idea for a character who is put in the situation of being raped and abused, but it's so over the top grim that I likely won't ever write it. The character isn't redeemed at all by the situation.

[David VanDyke]

I have to wonder if graphic rape is actually a selling point for books, as a few people seem to be saying. Maybe I'm just behind the times, though.

If it is, then it seems to me that's a bellweather for society, especially as consent issues are much in the news right now.

Backing off, if the rape is not graphic, it becomes part of the whole fridging issue--how to motivate characters emotionally, what's cheap, cliche or indulgent when doing so, and so on.

Taking murder as a common substitute crime that's a bit less emotionally fraught, there are books with clean tidy murders off screen except for when the detective views to body and crime scene--and there are books with detailed graphic murders and torture and so on. I guess there's a market for each.

[Shayne]

I had to look up "the end of the world as we know it."

Now I know I should steer clear of post-apoc novels.

I was very disappointed in a novelization from an old TV series (edited: it was Highlander) in which the protagonist did nothing to help anyone. I thought he was a poor excuse for a hero and not worth the pages spent on his story.

Of course, if you live long enough you'll reach the end of the world as you knew it. Only without zombies.

Highlander? As in 'there can be only one'?

[CoraBuhlert]

No wonder my clean, rebuilding, post apoc story doesn't sell that well.

I have a post-apocalyptic collection featuring people trying to live their lives, rebuilding and adjusting to the new normal. No rape and little violence, cause it's basically about human resilience. The collection sold well at Amazon for a while, but then fell off a cliff. Looking at the prepper books and the stories with graphic violence and rape it was surrounded by, I guess my little stories about survival weren't really what the audience/audiences were looking for. It still does well at Apple though. And there will be volume 2 next year.

[She-la-te-da]

People will often say they want to read stories about rebuilding, but then those sorts of stories don't sell. There has to be some level of conflict, not necessarily graphic violence, or readers get bored. I know I would. (It's what keeps my zompoc books from selling, I think, since there's not that much gruesome zombie killing, certainly not on every page. Definitely not constant action and killing and raping and stuff.)

[She-la-te-da]

World Made By Hand is about recovery after the end of the world, but even in that book, things happen. It's more low-key survivalist, but the author has a huge base, so he can do that stuff.

[WasAnn]

People will often say they want to read stories about rebuilding, but then those sorts of stories don't sell. There has to be some level of conflict, not necessarily graphic violence, or readers get bored. I know I would. (It's what keeps my zompoc books from selling, I think, since there's not that much gruesome zombie killing, certainly not on every page. Definitely not constant action and killing and raping and stuff.)

I'm in a similar boat with Between Life and Death. Don't get me wrong, the first year they sold well, maybe 20K (not including freebies) copies in total according to bookreport, and they definitely earned out. So, I'm not unhappy with them, BUT, they dropped off the radar in favor of more gruesome offerings.

Mine features two YA female protag, but isn't written strictly YA, but geared toward adult in word choice and so on. I haven't really promo'd them in well over a year, so perhaps that's my fault.

That said, it really does seem that the entire genre has gotten a lot more graphic in terms of violence against females. I don't entirely disagree with that though. PA is, in it's bones, a lesson wrapped in entertainment. Right now our civilized world is one way, but strip away that very thin veneer, and it gets ugly fast.

I've been places where that's happened and it's amazing how quickly humanity descends into utter brutality. We like to think of ourselves as safe, but in such a situation violence against females, especially in terms of rape and servile bondage, is shockingly widespread. I suppose what most surprised me was how many otherwise normal men thought it was okay to go that route.

In response to that, I almost understand why that is featured so heavily. It's a lesson for women reading and the men who feel responsible for wives and daughters, as much as to titillate a certain demographic of male reader. Trust nothing, have a gun you know how to use well, and know it's coming.

[WasAnn]

World Made By Hand is about recovery after the end of the world, but even in that book, things happen. It's more low-key survivalist, but the author has a huge base, so he can do that stuff.

I've got that one. I read it some years ago, but I do remember enjoying it, though I vaguely remember feeling it could have been much more than it was.

[DrewMcGunn]

I wish Joe Nobody would show up here. He's done very well in tapping into the post-apocalyptic genre. I'd be curious to read his take on this.

[She-la-te-da]

World Made By Hand is about recovery after the end of the world, but even in that book, things happen. It's more low-key survivalist, but the author has a huge base, so he can do that stuff.

I've got that one. I read it some years ago, but I do remember enjoying it, though I vaguely remember feeling it could have been much more than it was.

It could have been a lot better, but he was writing to his audience. Ha.

in such a situation violence against females, especially in terms of rape and servile bondage, is shockingly widespread

Oh, for sure. It's all over, and we're only a thin layer of civilization away from it happening here. I think the issue most of us have with the rape, graphic or otherwise, in PA -- though it's in other genres as well -- is that for most women characters, it's the extent of their role in the story. Women are either protected from rape by the men-folk, or they're victims and have to be saved by the men, but it's the only thing that's given them for character building.

I'm also seeing more books where the female characters are mainly men without penises. Just finished one where the FMC, a former scientist and lately 'soccer mom', suddenly begins to give experienced military men battle strategies and becomes some kickass, stomp 'em and take names later commando. Like, from one day to the next. Every once in a while we get a reminder she's got girly fee-fees, but that's about it. Yes, we want strong women. But that's not how it works.

[David VanDyke]

I suppose what most surprised me was how many otherwise normal men thought it was okay to go that route.

The history of the world and human nature shows that without the rule of law, the powerful prey on the powerless--not only men preying on women, though that's statistically the most common, but anyone in power preying on anyone without it. Slavery is still with us today, even if mostly not institutionalized--it's an uphill battle against trafficking, sweatshops, child soldiering, child rape, marital slavery, and so on.

It's fascinating to explore that trope via books and other entertainment, and to remind people of the consequences of the breakdown of civil society--but as with anything, fascination can become fixation and indulgence. The lines are often hard to draw, but they are just as often easy to sense, when reading it. Kind of like the line between obscenity and erotica. Is this prurient, or truly damaging, or titillating, or likely to feed genuine violent impulses? Is rape or slavery viewed as somehow justifiable, as vigilante justice is often portrayed as justifiable? I would argue vigilante rape is never justifiable, even if murdering someone outside the law might be.

I guess it comes down to what's moral vs. what's lawful. IMO rape is always morally wrong, regardless of legality, but what the law calls murder might be, in some extreme circumstances, morally right. At least, that's how a lot of antiheroes are written, and I don't see a lot of debate about whether those tropes should even exist.

[idontknowyet]

I wouldn't call myself a girlie girl but I'm definitely not the commando type either. Books that portray real people stepping up and doing what needs to be done, because it needs to be done really resonate with me. I am of the school of belief that people (mothers especially) can do more than seems humanly possible with the right incentive. It can really irritate me when a book is all about a man protecting his little woman.

[PJ Post]

On the forum that shan't be named, we discussed fridging and the subject of male gaze came up.

Does the graphic nature of these books frequently fall into the male gaze bucket? Although, I'm not sure how it can't, right?

Also, I think the stat is 3 in 5 women 'report' some form of sexual assault...and that's with the police and civilization. The end of the world would be really really bad.

I'm also seeing more books where the female characters are mainly men without penises. Just finished one where the FMC, a former scientist and lately 'soccer mom', suddenly begins to give experienced military men battle strategies and becomes some kickass, stomp 'em and take names later commando. Like, from one day to the next. Every once in a while we get a reminder she's got girly fee-fees, but that's about it. Yes, we want strong women. But that's not how it works.

Yeah, I think writers are misunderstanding what "strong female character" means. It's not about badassery, it's about writing our characters as fully realized people, as individuals with their own agency, complete with believable backstories and logical motivations. Then all we have to do is be consistent and let them turn out however they turn out. Not everyone is going to be a badass.

For example, Rey is often mistaken for a strong female character, but she's just a classic Mary Sue. The ability to kick ass isn't the point. TLJ really missed out on a lot of opportunities with their female characters. Being a strong female character isn't about authority or not having any flaws, it's about overcoming adversity, just like any other literary MC.

I bring this up, not as a tangent, but because it seems like it's all related. Just look at what Christine Ford is having to put up with - death threats? I don't know if she's lying or stating the God's Truth...but she deserves to be treated with respect and common decency. Especially by our "leaders".

Again, not trying to make this political, or even taking sides, just wondering how it all ties together from a sociological and marketing demographic perspective.

[She-la-te-da]

I suppose what most surprised me was how many otherwise normal men thought it was okay to go that route.

David, can you fix this? It's not my words, so the quote shouldn't be attributed to me, but to WasAnn. Thanks!

David and PJ, that's what I was saying, the act of rape is all too common, and will undoubtedly become more of a guaranteed thing once society broke down. My issue is that far too many authors use this as the only character building they give to female characters. Women in most of these books, especially in the more "prepper porn" ones, are either the virtuous, obedient (usually Godly) wife, or the victim who must be rescued by the uberman hero (and sometimes she ends up as both). This sort of character building for women is common in many, if not all genres, except maybe Romance.

So, I'm seeing three kinds of women:  the Wife, the Victim, and the Man In a Skirt. Even women writers do this, so it's not just a "man" thing. It's weakness in the writing, but if you're strictly going for a certain audience, then you follow this and the other tropes in the genre.

[Edward M. Grant]

Does the graphic nature of these books frequently fall into the male gaze bucket? Although, I'm not sure how it can't, right?

As a man, I have no real desire to read graphic rape scenes.

However, anyone who's read anything about history knows that, when civilization breaks down, rape is commonplace. I've just about finished reading a history book about a German city in the last months of WWII, and rape was a routine occurrence there at the end of the war, until the American forces arrived and restored some kind of law and order.

So it's going to be commonplace in many kinds of post-apocalyptic writing. The obvious exceptions are the stories where most of the population dies off rapidly, like The Stand, which only had one short dubious-consent scene that I remember in its thousand-plus pages... and was about as icky as I'd want to go as a reader.

But graphic? Yuck. Particularly if it's just some kind of an 'I spit on your grave' motivation for revenge and serves no other purpose in the story.

[veinglory]

I think there is a distinction between having rape in the scenario, and having long graphic descriptions of it with various kinds of victim 

FWIW enjoyment of rape fantasies is quite common for both men and women--or at least they were through the 70s and 80s when the big sex behavior surveys were being done. 

[Edward M. Grant]

True, I seem to remember it was fairly common in cheap horror paperbacks of the 70s.

[bookworm]

I hope not, because there are some amazing ones out there, including a bunch written for an entirely different audience than that. Some of them are amazing and will bring huge tears to your eyes. Half Way Home and WOOL by Hugh Howey are technically PA.

I thought Wool was dystopian, not post apoc

[WasAnn]

I hope not, because there are some amazing ones out there, including a bunch written for an entirely different audience than that. Some of them are amazing and will bring huge tears to your eyes. Half Way Home and WOOL by Hugh Howey are technically PA.

I thought Wool was dystopian, not post apoc

It's both. The whole world beyond the silo is dead

Spoiler: ShowHide

(so they think)

and destroyed in a single cataclysmic event.