Stephen King writes the same amount as the rest of us!

[Doglover]

  I was watching a documentary about Stephen King over Christmas in which it was said that he writes 2000 words a day. So do I!  So do a lot of other writers, yet he only gets out one book a year. Oh, it day say he writes every day and that he might not use all of those 2000 words, but even so.

Of course, he is very busy doing an Alfred Hitchc*ck in all his films as well, but it gives me hope. Not that I am ever going to be the writer King is; I don't have that sort of mind and good luck to him. Good luck to us as well! 

[VanessaC]

Oh, interesting!  I generally aim for 2,000 words a day, too, but unfortunately the day job gets in the way a lot - if only I didn't have those bills to pay!

It also makes you realise how "indie" expectations and "trade" expectations are very different.  Clearly, Stephen King is one of the best selling authors ever, and also thought of (I think, but not sure) as a fairly fast writer, but I suspect that the majority of commercially / financially successful indie authors are going to be writing a lot more than 2,000 words a day.

[Doglover]

Oh, interesting!  I generally aim for 2,000 words a day, too, but unfortunately the day job gets in the way a lot - if only I didn't have those bills to pay!

It also makes you realise how "indie" expectations and "trade" expectations are very different.  Clearly, Stephen King is one of the best selling authors ever, and also thought of (I think, but not sure) as a fairly fast writer, but I suspect that the majority of commercially / financially successful indie authors are going to be writing a lot more than 2,000 words a day.

I agree, but the narrator did tell us that SK 'knocks out a book a year' as though it were something special. Perhaps when we had to use typewriters, but not now. Anyway, fingers crossed. 

[Maggie Ann]

So what does he do for the rest of the day? I can "knock out" 2K words in 1.5-2 hours. If I could do that every day, I'd be putting out more than one book a year.

[Doglover]

So what does he do for the rest of the day? I can "knock out" 2K words in 1.5-2 hours. If I could do that every day, I'd be putting out more than one book a year.

He doesn't have to do anything, though, does he? He doesn't have to work, so I expect he spends the time with his family. I know I would.

I wouldn't be surprised if the publisher only wants one book a year from him; after all trad publishers like to take their time.

[Bill Hiatt]

So what does he do for the rest of the day? I can "knock out" 2K words in 1.5-2 hours. If I could do that every day, I'd be putting out more than one book a year.

He doesn't have to do anything, though, does he? He doesn't have to work, so I expect he spends the time with his family. I know I would.

I wouldn't be surprised if the publisher only wants one book a year from him; after all trad publishers like to take their time.

This.

In fact, King can produce considerably more than one book a year. He tried to channel the overflow in a different pen name (Richard Bachman), but fans figured out Bachman was King. I'd be willing to bet he writes more than one book a year, but publishes only one. If I'm right, the others will make a nice income for his estate eventually. Alternatively, he can take a long vacation from writing if he wants, knowing he has a backlog of books ready to release.

[Doglover]

I often wondered why, with the billions he must have at his disposal, he bothers to write more books. But then, the programme said that he only started to recover from his accident once he started writing again.

Perhaps he needs that as much as he needed the drugs and alcohol that nearly lost him his family.

I'm sure you're right; I'm sure he churns out at least a book every two months or so.

It was a really interesting programme though. It told how some bloke turned up on his doorstep with a shoebox which he claimed contained a bomb. He accused King or stealing his stories, Carrie, Salem's Lot and the Shining, and said he had come to blow him up!

I've always said I just want the wealth; you can keep the fame!

[Jake]

King publishes closer to 2 books a year, also he's a pretty prolific short story writer.

[dgcasey]

The difference between King's 700,000 words per year and my 700,000 words per year is he doesn't believe every word he writes is gold. He's willing to kill his "darlings" whereas a lot of us, me for instance, are reluctant to let go of a single word. I write 700K worth of words and I think I've got 7-9 good books right there, ready to hit the publish button. He looks at his 700K words and thinks he has the makings of a good story that will be great once he tweaks it.

You go, Mr. King!   

[dgcasey]

It was a really interesting programme though. It told how some bloke turned up on his doorstep with a shoebox which he claimed contained a bomb. He accused King or stealing his stories, Carrie, Salem's Lot and the Shining, and said he had come to blow him up!

I'm betting Stephen was standing there at his door, listening to this maniac, thinking, "Good Lord! What a great story idea!"

[dgcasey]

So what does he do for the rest of the day? I can "knock out" 2K words in 1.5-2 hours. If I could do that every day, I'd be putting out more than one book a year.

Me, too. I can go to mywriteclub.com and jump into the 25 minutes sprints and in three sprints have over 2400 words. I think Steve King is sloughing off a little.

[angela]

I always thought the reason most authors aim for 2k a day is because everyone reads that in King's On Writing memoir and decides it's the "right" goal.

[Doglover]

I always thought the reason most authors aim for 2k a day is because everyone reads that in King's On Writing memoir and decides it's the "right" goal.

I haven't read it. I can only go on what was said in the programme, that he always writes 2000 words a day.

It was a really interesting programme though. It told how some bloke turned up on his doorstep with a shoebox which he claimed contained a bomb. He accused King or stealing his stories, Carrie, Salem's Lot and the Shining, and said he had come to blow him up!

I'm betting Stephen was standing there at his door, listening to this maniac, thinking, "Good Lord! What a great story idea!"

I imagine he did. Apparently, there was no bomb, just a shoebox, but you never know

author=dgcasey link=topic=1620.msg29401#msg29401 date=1546407159]
The difference between King's 700,000 words per year and my 700,000 words per year is he doesn't believe every word he writes is gold. He's willing to kill his "darlings" whereas a lot of us, me for instance, are reluctant to let go of a single word. I write 700K worth of words and I think I've got 7-9 good books right there, ready to hit the publish button. He looks at his 700K words and thinks he has the makings of a good story that will be great once he tweaks it.

You go, Mr. King!   

That is very true. I once got to 30,000 and thought 'this isn't working' and abandoned it. But it still lingers somewhere on my hard drive, just in case.

[Maggie Ann]

I always thought the reason most authors aim for 2k a day is because everyone reads that in King's On Writing memoir and decides it's the "right" goal.

I have the book but never read it.

I used to go to McD's to write in the morning. I'd have breakfast and write for two hours which was about the time the lunch crowd came in and I'd have to leave. Two hours for me back then added up to 2K words. Now, wherever I go to write, I don't stop until I've written 2K give or take. Just a habit I got into.

But those are first draft words. If only every one of them were good words ... 

[Doglover]

I always thought the reason most authors aim for 2k a day is because everyone reads that in King's On Writing memoir and decides it's the "right" goal.

I have the book but never read it.

I used to go to McD's to write in the morning. I'd have breakfast and write for two hours which was about the time the lunch crowd came in and I'd have to leave. Two hours for me back then added up to 2K words. Now, wherever I go to write, I don't stop until I've written 2K give or take. Just a habit I got into.

But those are first draft words. If only every one of them were good words ... 

I could never write with people around me never mind a public place. I do have the telly on in the background, but that's just noise.

[dgcasey]

I could never write with people around me never mind a public place. I do have the telly on in the background, but that's just noise.

There are only two places I can go and do that. The library and a NaNoWriMo Write-In.

[Maggie Ann]

I could never write with people around me never mind a public place. I do have the telly on in the background, but that's just noise.

There are only two places I can go and do that. The library and a NaNoWriMo Write-In.

Even the library has people. Lots of people. And nobody shushes anyone.

I was a paralegal/legal secretary in my working life and I had to multi-task all the time. I could transcribe a tape and listen to someone's computer problem at the same time. I don't think I could do that anymore, but I can write and not be distracted by conversations around me. I need activity and movement around me to be productive.

[Bill Hiatt]

I do best in a relatively quiet place, but the quiet need not be absolute. Sometimes, I listen to music. During the day, since my neighbors are both families, each with two young children, I hear the occasional sounds of children at play, but that's rather pleasant. Constant noise, though, would be a distraction.

[Doglover]

I could never write with people around me never mind a public place. I do have the telly on in the background, but that's just noise.

There are only two places I can go and do that. The library and a NaNoWriMo Write-In.

Even the library has people. Lots of people. And nobody shushes anyone.

I was a paralegal/legal secretary in my working life and I had to multi-task all the time. I could transcribe a tape and listen to someone's computer problem at the same time. I don't think I could do that anymore, but I can write and not be distracted by conversations around me. I need activity and movement around me to be productive.

Its not the noise or the fact of people there; it's more that I would be thinking they are trying to see what I'm doing! I get very possessive about my writing while I'm writing it and I can't get right into a character if anyone is around.

[Maggie Ann]

I could never write with people around me never mind a public place. I do have the telly on in the background, but that's just noise.

There are only two places I can go and do that. The library and a NaNoWriMo Write-In.

Even the library has people. Lots of people. And nobody shushes anyone.

I was a paralegal/legal secretary in my working life and I had to multi-task all the time. I could transcribe a tape and listen to someone's computer problem at the same time. I don't think I could do that anymore, but I can write and not be distracted by conversations around me. I need activity and movement around me to be productive.

Its not the noise or the fact of people there; it's more that I would be thinking they are trying to see what I'm doing! I get very possessive about my writing while I'm writing it and I can't get right into a character if anyone is around.

It was worse when I went to McDs. Lots of people asking. But not at Panera or the library. The only two people who approached me at Panera asked about the AlphaSmart. It's not something that most people are familiar with.

Very comfy chairs at the library and a nice view from where I usually sit. Everyone there is usually busy with their own stuff so they don't bother me.

[notthatamanda]

I often wondered why, with the billions he must have at his disposal, he bothers to write more books. But then, the programme said that he only started to recover from his accident once he started writing again.

Perhaps he needs that as much as he needed the drugs and alcohol that nearly lost him his family.

I'm sure you're right; I'm sure he churns out at least a book every two months or so.

It was a really interesting programme though. It told how some bloke turned up on his doorstep with a shoebox which he claimed contained a bomb. He accused King or stealing his stories, Carrie, Salem's Lot and the Shining, and said he had come to blow him up!

I've always said I just want the wealth; you can keep the fame!

This was a movie, with Johnnie Depp.  I can't for the life of me remember the name of it.  I won't spoil it, but I hope for SK's sake the cops were able to find an actual perpetrator. 

Ditto on the wealth and fame.

Didn't King publish a lot more frequently back in the 80s?  I remember when they added 7 seconds to the year one time and Jay Leno said in his monologue, "Guess they wanted to give SK time to publish another novel."

I think I will always write, until my mind and/or fingers fail me.  It's a tremendous way to destress and escape for a couple of hours.  Plus the characters will continue to bug me to be let out.   Or maybe he just sucks at relaxing. 

[Kathy Dee]

I'm betting Stephen was standing there at his door, listening to this maniac, thinking, "Good Lord! What a great story idea!"

Ha ha!

Actually, that is a very good idea ... hmmmm

[munboy]

I'm always kind of shocked by how much "prolific" writers write when it's broken down into hours/days. I've been binge listening to the Writing Excuses podcast, which of course features Brandon Sanderson among others. In a throw away comment, he mentioned that he writes about 500 words an hour. I thought he would have been cranking out a lot more than that. I can hit a good 1000 an hour if I go into a writing session knowing exactly what I'm going to be writing and I hit a groove (and I'm not distracted.) If only I wrote full time, I could be a lot more prolific. 

[ragdoll]

... I can hit a good 1000 an hour if I go into a writing session knowing exactly what I'm going to be writing and I hit a groove (and I'm not distracted.) If only I wrote full time, I could be a lot more prolific. 

I used to think that, too. Would regularly hit 1500-2500 an hour. Had plenty of 7k to 11k days. Then I went "full time." The thing was, there was a lot of thinking going into the writing before I had the freedom from work and family maintenance to sit down and write.

Ah well, it's still early January, haven't blown my writing resolutions too badly yet :D

[Maggie Ann]

I'm always kind of shocked by how much "prolific" writers write when it's broken down into hours/days. I've been binge listening to the Writing Excuses podcast, which of course features Brandon Sanderson among others. In a throw away comment, he mentioned that he writes about 500 words an hour. I thought he would have been cranking out a lot more than that. I can hit a good 1000 an hour if I go into a writing session knowing exactly what I'm going to be writing and I hit a groove (and I'm not distracted.) If only I wrote full time, I could be a lot more prolific. 

There is an old saying. If you want something done, give it to the busiest person in the office. When you have all the time in the world, it's easier to put something off. If you don't have a lot of time, you'll work feverishly to get it done.

It takes discipline to work from home. I know a woman who would get dressed and put on make-up and sit down to work at the same time every day. This is why I leave the house on days that I set aside to work and go to the library or to Panera and set myself a writing goal. I even try to leave the house at the same time.

If I try to work at home, I'll stop to pet the dog, water my plants, check my sales, fool around here, work on a cover for the book I'm pretending to write. But if I treat it like a job with a specific task to perform, I'm actually productive.

New Year's resolution is to get my lazy butt out the door two to three times a week instead of one or two.

 

[lyndabelle]

I'm happy to get any words done in a day. Example: 332 one day and then the next 1683.

I've got a method that I require myself to sit down and remain still for an hour. Some days are better than others, but 2,000 words a day is too much pressure and doesn't work for me. I'd rather have more usable words with less word count than lots of words and throws tons out. But then, maybe some people have to write a lot of words to get to the good stuff. Depends on your process.

End game is there is nothing wrong in how you get there, as long as you get the book done. And 1 book a year is great. I wrote one book last year and a novella. Plus, I worked on a 62K novel I submitted. I don't think it's the amount of books you write a year, but what is usable and sellable in the end. Bottom line is something that you can sell for money. ;-)

[munboy]

... I can hit a good 1000 an hour if I go into a writing session knowing exactly what I'm going to be writing and I hit a groove (and I'm not distracted.) If only I wrote full time, I could be a lot more prolific. 

I used to think that, too. Would regularly hit 1500-2500 an hour. Had plenty of 7k to 11k days. Then I went "full time." The thing was, there was a lot of thinking going into the writing before I had the freedom from work and family maintenance to sit down and write.

Ah well, it's still early January, haven't blown my writing resolutions too badly yet :D

I'm definitely a groove writer. If I can sit and write consistently almost daily, I can crank out a lot of words, writing more and more as time goes by. If there's large gaps in writing time, I struggle to get back into it...which is where I'm at usually. I don't make enough off my books to quit my "real" job, so I have to split my time between that, my family, and my writing.

If I had the ability to quit my job and focus on writing, and treat it as a full time job, I believe I could hit that "groove" a lot more often and get a lot more than 2 books a year done.

[YouMeWe]

So what does he do for the rest of the day? I can "knock out" 2K words in 1.5-2 hours. If I could do that every day, I'd be putting out more than one book a year.

Me, too. I can go to mywriteclub.com and jump into the 25 minutes sprints and in three sprints have over 2400 words. I think Steve King is sloughing off a little.

THIS IS AN OLLLLLLLLLLLDDDDDDDD THREAD, FOLKS, OLD THREAD ALERT!

I joined mywriteclub.com some time ago and couldn't remember the name. Searched for 'sprints' and there it was in a post. Praise be to dgcasey for writing it down and to Tim for blessing us with a decent search function. Thank you muchly.

DIE THREAD DIE ... or discuss sprints. 

[Simon Haynes]

Dunno about sprints. I've been writing for 12 hours today, minus the usual breaks for cooking and the like, and I just hit 5500 words. I think I watched 3 or 4 eps of the West Wing in there somewhere though.

That's my kind of sprint.

[Lynn]

I used to use a timer (only stopped for good about three weeks or so ago, tbh) because it felt like it helped me stay focused on writing. I never did manage to actually write more with the timer than I wrote without, and sprints are a bit of a joke for me because of my process.

I can't not write as cleanly as possible and go over what I write as I go so that it says what I want it to say. So a 20 minute sprint might net me 300 words or 2 words. :D Absolutely could not count on a certain number of words with sprinting. My brain just treats writing the way it treats it and that's that, apparently.

On the other hand, I'm settling in to a timerless life just fine and have fallen into my natural groove. I'm the kind of writer that goes back and forth between the manuscript and other things throughout the day and pretty much write from the moment I get up until I go to bed, doing all the other bits of living when I want a break. Some days, that break might be most of the day and some days it's like the last few days where I eat half my meals at the keyboard and don't think about much other than my stories. :D

I also can't really set "hours" for writing either. So I don't bother anymore. I've tried. I've tried so many things over my lifetime when it comes to being a more productive writer, but I think this is it. I think I've finally just accepted that sprints, timers, schedules, and the like, are all just me dealing with writing avoidance. They made me feel like I was addressing the problems (whatever they were--because they come around and seem different every time!) but in reality they were just ways to distract me from the truth that I just didn't want to write at that moment for whatever reason.

[Bill Hiatt]

Someone who was really writing 2000 words a day every day (or at least on average) would be creating 730,000 a year. If you think about the length of some of King's works (The Stand is 486,000 words, for example), that could be as little as two books, one to publish that year and one to save or later. I suspect it's more like two drafts of the same book, but I haven't seen the program or read King's memoir, so I'm not sure whether we're talking 2,000 completely unique words each day or whether second and subsequent drafts also count somehow.

Anyway, a lot of the people who release really rapidly write much shorter books. I'm reading someone's box set right now. The books are good, and each book has a complete story arc, but they aren't very long, probably not more than 50,000 words (a novel, but close to the low end on word count). At that rate, 730,000 words would be the equivalent of about 14.6 books per year.  If we assume a writer needs to do two drafts, and that those drafts probably aren't complete rewrites and take about half as long as the first draft, we're down to about 10 books. In other words, if Stephen King is accurate in stating his daily word count, if he were an indie writing shorter books, he could  be producing 10-15 books a year.

2,000 words a day sound doable, but of course, other aspects of life sometimes get in the way. Also, some of us have a hard time pressing on right away when we're stumped. Also, some of us produce more complicated plots that can't be handled in 50,000 words. Double that would end up with 5-7 books per year, still fairly substantial.

All of that said, I find I need to reread a few time more, even with an editor, to make myself satisfied. We all have different patterns that work for us. Some allow for higher production levels than others. I'm at peace with the fact that I'll never be a really fast writer, even thought that 2,000 words a day sounds doable.

Oh! I just saw YouMeWe's post. Yeah, this is an old thread. Yet the issue still lingers...

[Shoe]

Stephen King In his own words (excerpt from https://medium.com/the-mission/the-daily-routine-of-20-famous-writers-and-how-you-can-use-them-to-succeed-1603f52fbb77)

In an interview with Game Of Thrones Author, George R.R. Martin, Martin asks Stephen King how he writes so fast and gets so much work done. Here’s an excerpt from the interview at 50:29:

Martin: How the f@!% do you write so many books so fast? I think, “Oh, I’ve had a really good six months, I’ve finished three chapters.” And you’ve finished three books in that time.

King: Here’s the thing, okay? There are books, and there are books. The way that I work, I try to get out there and I try to get six pages a day. So, with a book like End of Watch, and … when I’m working I work every day — three, four hours, and I try to get those six pages, and I try to get them fairly clean. So if the manuscript is, let’s say, 360 pages long, that’s basically two months work. … But that’s assuming it goes well.

Martin: And you do hit six pages a day?

King: I usually do.

Martin: You don’t ever have a day where you sit down there and it’s like constipation? And you write a sentence and you hate the sentence, and you check your email and you wonder if you had any talent after all? And maybe you should have been a plumber? (Laughs) Don’t you have days like that?

King: No. I mean, there’s real life, I could be working away, and something comes up and you have to get up … but mostly I try to get the six pages in.

In case your wandering, Stephen King’s morning routine usually looks something like this…
“I have a glass of water or a cup of tea. There’s a certain time I sit down, from 8:00 to 8:30, somewhere within that half hour every morning,” he explained. “I have my vitamin pill and my music, sit in the same seat, and the papers are all arranged in the same places…The cumulative purpose of doing these things the same way every day seems to be a way of saying to the mind, you’re going to be dreaming soon.”

[Bill Hiatt]

Interesting. "Fairly clean" suggests it may be one draft and off to the editor. Does 6 pages suggest 2000 words? I'm not sure.

I notice that when Martin says the line about writing three chapters in six months compared to King writing three books in six months, King doesn't correct him.

[Lynn]

Interesting. "Fairly clean" suggests it may be one draft and off to the editor. Does 6 pages suggest 2000 words? I'm not sure.

I notice that when Martin says the line about writing three chapters in six months compared to King writing three books in six months, King doesn't correct him.

Manuscript format assumes 250 words per page so that's 1500. But change that font up and you can get something more like 333 easily. I'd say a lot of the writers entrenched in the old system still use the 250 to gauge word counts. :D

[Shoe]

From Google:

In his book On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft, King speaks on his writing speed. He would set a daily goal of about 2,000 words. This would add up to about 180,000 words in three months of writing. He also said that three months was the maximum amount of time it should take someone to finish a first draft.

[Bill Hiatt]

OK, so if he's being consistent, that means he considers 2000 words and six pages roughly consistent.

If three months is the maximum for a first draft, his production rate would depend on whether or not he does multiple drafts, or whether the first draft, which he strives to make relatively clean, gets sent to the editor.

That said, I've seldom gotten a first draft done that fast, unless one counts novellas.

[dgcasey]

I can't not write as cleanly as possible and go over what I write as I go so that it says what I want it to say. So a 20 minute sprint might net me 300 words or 2 words. :D Absolutely could not count on a certain number of words with sprinting. My brain just treats writing the way it treats it and that's that, apparently.

Well, the thing is, sprints are strictly a first draft tool for me. It is only for getting that story out of my head onto the page. Obviously, editing is not done as a sprint. Like most pro writers will tell you, don't go back and self-edit while you're trying to get the first draft out. Stephen doesn't do it, Jerry Jenkins doesn't do it and most other full-time, long-time writers don't do it.

Interestingly, Jerry Jenkins will write his allotted number of pages each morning, but not before he goes back and does a complete edit on what he wrote the day before. Once that edit is finished, he takes off his editor's hat and put on the writer's hat and dives in. What that will do is put you in a spot where you are back in the story, when it comes time to write. It's a good little take from him. Most writers would do well to listen to it.

[Shoe]

If three months is the maximum for a first draft, his production rate would depend on whether or not he does multiple drafts, or whether the first draft, which he strives to make relatively clean, gets sent to the editor.

"The most common writers I think are the three-draft writers. Stephen King is a three-draft writer. I recall reading that in his On-Writing book, he writes the first draft, puts it down for a few weeks, reads it, writes the second draft, gets feedback, then writes the third one." [Source: https://medium.com/the-write-club/how-many-drafts-to-write-a-book-35e7b5b1d948]

I write at least three drafts, by which I mean I read the first draft and make changes, put it away for a while, read the "second draft", make changes, put it away, etc. For me, putting the draft out of sight for at least a month is a big part of the process.

(Before word processing computers, I suppose a "second draft" meant typing up the revised first draft, involving much more effort then we face today.)

[Shoe]

Interestingly, Jerry Jenkins will write his allotted number of pages each morning, but not before he goes back and does a complete edit on what he wrote the day before.

That's my process too for getting back in the groove.

[dgcasey]

One other thing about the sprints, at least for me, is to write a quick outline for what I want to see for the next 15-20 pages. It doesn't have to be a master's level outline or anything like that. Just a quick 5-10 minutes spent planning what I want to accomplish during the sprints keeps me from stopping and staring at the screen, wondering what to write next, while the counter is counting down. This is why I can write 1500-1700 words during two 25 minute sprints in an hour. The only thing that slows me down is the fact that I'm not the world's fastest typist.

One of the things that helps me with my outlining is I've already done my Save The Cat beat sheet for the novel I'm working on. For the current novel, it's about 90% done. There's a few empty steps in the beat sheet towards the beginning of the third act I'll have to work out, but I have enough done to get me there during NaNo.

[JRTomlin]

Oh, interesting!  I generally aim for 2,000 words a day, too, but unfortunately the day job gets in the way a lot - if only I didn't have those bills to pay!

It also makes you realise how "indie" expectations and "trade" expectations are very different.  Clearly, Stephen King is one of the best selling authors ever, and also thought of (I think, but not sure) as a fairly fast writer, but I suspect that the majority of commercially / financially successful indie authors are going to be writing a lot more than 2,000 words a day.

I'm not sure that's true that most indie authors write a lot more than that. 2k useable words a day would give you pretty close to a book a month in the 60-70k range. And a lot of romances are shorter than that.

You know I am mind boggled at how complicated some people make writing. Not meant as a criticism. If it works for you, that's what you should do. And I complicate it enough with historical research that I can't say much. But when it comes to the writing part, I just sit down and write. The other complicated methods are just beyond my ken.

On the other hand, I average 1k a day so some people wouldn't be happy with that. But over a year it is several novels.

[Lynn]

I can't not write as cleanly as possible and go over what I write as I go so that it says what I want it to say. So a 20 minute sprint might net me 300 words or 2 words. :D Absolutely could not count on a certain number of words with sprinting. My brain just treats writing the way it treats it and that's that, apparently.

Well, the thing is, sprints are strictly a first draft tool for me. It is only for getting that story out of my head onto the page. Obviously, editing is not done as a sprint. Like most pro writers will tell you, don't go back and self-edit while you're trying to get the first draft out. Stephen doesn't do it, Jerry Jenkins doesn't do it and most other full-time, long-time writers don't do it.

Interestingly, Jerry Jenkins will write his allotted number of pages each morning, but not before he goes back and does a complete edit on what he wrote the day before. Once that edit is finished, he takes off his editor's hat and put on the writer's hat and dives in. What that will do is put you in a spot where you are back in the story, when it comes time to write. It's a good little take from him. Most writers would do well to listen to it.

That's what I'm saying though. There is no difference for me in first draft and last draft writing. I write a draft and that's it. The draft is the book, the story, what have you.

Just to put it in perspective though, I admit that I've been writing since about the mid-to-late 80s (my "first" book took nearly twenty (15?) years and morphed into several other books during that time, LOL) and I've published about 20 novels at this point (since 2012) and written more than that since I also write short stories and novellas. And I don't do anything but write. That's my full-time job. :D

Sprinting is just impossible for me in the style that you're talking about.

[Shoe]

There is no difference for me in first draft and last draft writing. I write a draft and that's it. The draft is the book, the story, what have you.

And you do zero revision? I ask because if I pull a first draft out of a drawer and change just a word here and there or revise a paragraph, what I return to the drawer is the "second" draft.

[JRTomlin]

I'm with you on the first draft thing, Lynn. Mind you, I do send it to betas & an editor who suggest changes that I often make, but I do not understand the idea that you should do a sloppy job on a first draft. I always do the best writing I can whether it is my first draft or not.

I don't care what 'most writers tell you' because there is no difference in my 'editors' hat and my 'writer' hat. As a full-time and fairly long-time writer who makes a living at it, of course, I edit as I write. I honestly don't care what works for Stephen King although I'll listen to advise and then probably dismiss it as not working for me. As for Jerry Jenkins?  *cough* I'll be polite.

[Bill Hiatt]

I'm with you on the first draft thing, Lynn. Mind you, I do send it to betas & an editor who suggest changes that I often make, but I do not understand the idea that you should do a sloppy job on a first draft. I always do the best writing I can whether it is my first draft or not.

I don't care what 'most writers tell you' because there is no difference in my 'editors' hat and my 'writer' hat. As a full-time and fairly long-time writer who makes a living at it, of course, I edit as I write. I honestly don't care what works for Stephen King although I'll listen to advise and then probably dismiss it as not working for me. As for Jerry Jenkins?  *cough* I'll be polite.

I'm not sure that anyone is advocating writing a sloppy first draft. A certain number of mistakes are likely, though, unless you follow the pattern of editing the previous day's work at the beginning of the following day or at some other future point. More important, sometimes your ideas may change as they slosh around in your brain. At least, that's how it works for me at least. The story mutates somewhat as I write, and that means going back and revising to assure continuity.

I'd love it if my first draft was my only draft, but my writing would not be as good if it were. That may not be true for everyone, but it is fairly common. In some cases, the rough drafts of famous works are available. (For instance, Trimalchio amounts to the rough draft for the Great Gatsby. In virtually every case, the later work is better.

I'm not saying this would be true for everyone. Some people really can write their best work the first time around. But in 36 years of teaching English, during which I frequently looked at student essays during the drafting process, I saw a lot of evidence that students produced better work through revision. I didn't do anything to force them into that pattern. In fact, for assignments that required two drafts, such as the term paper, I was willing to accept their first draft as their final draft if it was good enough. Some people every year met that requirement, though many of them revised along the way, so the "first" draft wasn't literally just one run-through and then done. For the rest, their final drafts were usually substantially better. This was true even for students who were very conscientious and certainly weren't going out of their way to write a sloppy first draft.

[JRTomlin]

First, since I said that I use beta readers and an editor, you are arguing with something I did not say. (Whether Lynn edits or not, I can't say)

Second, maybe some people who do 'sprint' writing, typing as fast as they can for an hour or so, don't do sloppy writing. All I can say is that the few time I tried it as an exercise that I did. I put just as much thought into my first draft as I do when I am writing the edited version.  In fact, I am not sure I ever do what you seem to call a first draft since I am constantly questioning if I used the right word or phrase or put scenes in the right order and fixing it if I didn't.

[Bill Hiatt]

First, since I said that I use beta readers and an editor, you are arguing with something I did not say. (Whether Lynn edits or not, I can't say)

Second, maybe some people who do 'sprint' writing, typing as fast as they can for an hour or so, don't do sloppy writing. All I can say is that the few time I tried it as an exercise that I did. I put just as much thought into my first draft as I do when I am writing the edited version.  In fact, I am not sure I ever do what you seem to call a first draft since I am constantly questioning if I used the right word or phrase or put scenes in the right order and fixing it if I didn't.

That's the problem with forums if someone responds to someone else--it's easy to construe the statement in its entirety as arguing with the person being responded to. I should have been clearer.

The only thing I actually disagreed with you about was that I didn't think anyone was advocating writing a sloppy rough draft. The rest was simply my statement about what I've observed regarding rough drafts. It wasn't really intended to come across as a dispute about the rest of what you were saying. Ironically, from what you say in the second paragraph, a lot of our practices may be similar. I also tend to go ponder and revise a bit as I go along.

[JRTomlin]

That's why I put in the parenthetical comment about Lynn. I don't know if she is so meticulous that she doesn't need an editor and maybe she doesn't consider a proofread for typos an edit. Obviously I can't speak for her but as a fairly meticulous writer, I need both. And some of us when we refer to a first draft are talking about what is, in fact, a heavily edited 'first draft'. 😜

I understand that some people make a note to add a scene or change wording and don't rework their draft as they go, but I just can't work that way and don't particularly want to. What I do - which as you say sounds similar to what you do - works for me. What works for someone else is their business. I'm not going to say it's wrong, but the 'your first draft will be crap' theory is not one that I ever bought. It may need tweaking and some work, but I finish a first draft that with a proofread (because I suck at proofreading) could be published and not be all that different from what will be the finished novel.

[Lynn]

There is no difference for me in first draft and last draft writing. I write a draft and that's it. The draft is the book, the story, what have you.

And you do zero revision? I ask because if I pull a first draft out of a drawer and change just a word here and there or revise a paragraph, what I return to the drawer is the "second" draft.

You seem to be saying that the literal first word I put down is "first draft" and that if I change anything, that's "second draft" and on. Writing is writing for me. I work on the story until I get to the end. If something comes up in the middle of the story and I need to go back and make a change, I do it. I do not wait. I'd forget, and if I wrote it down, I'd forget why I wrote it down and why I wanted to fix it, and what the purpose of any of it was. And I really can't write the next sentence if I haven't written all the others, because everything builds on what came before, so I could never wait to put something in or make a change, because I'd end up unable to move forward.

The idea that the moment I move from typing my next thought to bringing those thoughts together into something that makes sense means I'm not writing and have suddenly turned to editing is crazy. I'm still "drafting" my story. If it's not done, then it's a draft. Once the draft is finished, I'm done.

Yes, for me that often means that I'm combing through my book when I'm two pages from the end making sure things make sense, that I've put in all the stuff that needs to be in the story, etc. I did that today, in fact, because I finished a short story! I spent several hours adding a bit here and there and changing two or three little things to make the ending have more resonance, and found a way to put in a call back to the beginning of the story, and ended up adding 600+ words to the story, then added another 400 writing the end. And now I'm done. I won't do anything else to the story except read it, fix actual errors, and publish it. That story is done.

By the time I write that last line, I'm pretty much always done. I have a very few times actually added a scene to the end of a book after I read it and realized I needed just a little something else. But I know exactly which books those were, because it's a rare thing indeed.

Some people call this whole process editing as you go—I call it writing.

If I had to write a sloppy draft, I'd never finish a book (been there in my younger days, and will never go back, because I know how to finish a book now, and it's not by writing a sh*tty first draft). I'm not doing revision after the fact. No way. You couldn't pay me enough money to take something fully written and tear it apart and try to put it back together. I'd just write another book instead and do a better job the next time. (I've been there and done that too.)

[Lynn]

I finish a first draft that with a proofread (because I suck at proofreading) could be published and not be all that different from what will be the finished novel.

This sounds really, really close to how I work. Once I've written the end of the book, it's totally ready for a proofread and I'm ready to move on.

I happen to do my own proofreading, but that's because I'm stubborn, I don't like listening to other people's opinions of my work, and I'm just egotistical enough to think I do a fine job editing my own stuff. But that's totally on me. :D It's why I indie publish. I get to do whatever I want. ;D