Author Topic: How soon is too soon?  (Read 9503 times)

idontknowyet

How soon is too soon?
« on: March 19, 2019, 10:44:28 AM »
My sister and I were talking about writing today. She's working on finishing her 4th book. GRRR and I'm proud of her too, but I digress.

We were talking about my series. She's having a hard time keeping up with all my characters. She asked if I was going to put at the end or the beginning of the book a list of all the characters as a refresher for people. Then we were wondering how many books in a person should be before they add a character refresher list in their books.  Every three books I add 2 new MC, but each book has like 4-8 bit part characters most of which will become MC in later books.


How soon is too soon? Book 3 6 9 12 15? I'm over 30 books in my series.
 

123mlh

Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2019, 12:41:00 PM »
I read a lot of fantasy and actually like to see one at the back of the book starting with book one for ones that have a complex group of characters.
 
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VanessaC

Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2019, 06:53:05 PM »
Following a reader request, I've now added a character list and glossary to my first series (fantasy) - so there's one in every book, and I have adjusted it for each book to add new characters so it should follow the development of the series.  I've also put a disclaimer on mine that some details have been changed or omitted to avoid spoilers (there are a lot of bodies in my books).

If you're going to have a character list, I'd suggest that you start as you mean to go on - so put one in the first book, and adjust it as you go.
     



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Maggie Ann

Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2019, 11:30:41 PM »
As a reader, I'm not a fan of character lists, especially those with half or full page bios. To me, that's just stuffing.

But for a long series with a complex set of characters, a one or two sentence bio would be helpful, especially in a fantasy or sci-fi series. The names can start to run together.

Following a reader request, I've now added a character list and glossary to my first series (fantasy) - so there's one in every book, and I have adjusted it for each book to add new characters so it should follow the development of the series.  I've also put a disclaimer on mine that some details have been changed or omitted to avoid spoilers (there are a lot of bodies in my books).

If you're going to have a character list, I'd suggest that you start as you mean to go on - so put one in the first book, and adjust it as you go.

Yes. I definitely agree with this but please, keep it simple.

           
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2019, 12:58:11 AM »
From my point of view, a character list in the back can't hurt. One in the front might be annoying to people who don't want it, but one in the back can be ignored by those who aren't interested. (Given the fact that Kindles tend to pop a reader out of the book before the back matter begins (ask for ratings, show the next books in the series, etc.) it's likely a lot of people who aren't looking for one will never even see it.


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dariusmarley

Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2019, 03:59:21 PM »
I work with a few different media companies, and we always have "show bibles" that are used as references for animated serials... so why not try something similar with your series of books? It could be a standalone compendium that expands upon character descriptions, backstories, and other cool stuff... and it could perhaps become a collectible bonus for anybody who buys your entire series as a set. Hmmm... just some ideas here!
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VanessaC

Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2019, 07:17:35 PM »
As a reader, I'm not a fan of character lists, especially those with half or full page bios. To me, that's just stuffing.

But for a long series with a complex set of characters, a one or two sentence bio would be helpful, especially in a fantasy or sci-fi series. The names can start to run together.

Following a reader request, I've now added a character list and glossary to my first series (fantasy) - so there's one in every book, and I have adjusted it for each book to add new characters so it should follow the development of the series.  I've also put a disclaimer on mine that some details have been changed or omitted to avoid spoilers (there are a lot of bodies in my books).

If you're going to have a character list, I'd suggest that you start as you mean to go on - so put one in the first book, and adjust it as you go.

Yes. I definitely agree with this but please, keep it simple.

Wow, half-page bios? Who has the time?! Agree absolutely with "keep it simple".

I think character sheets could work well as a giveaway for mailing lists, etc, but in books, I don't like too much extra stuff - give me the book, please!

For character lists, I like the ones which just give you enough information to identify the characters - for example, my main character's entry on the list is something like "Arrow - mixed-blood, Erith-trained magician".
     



Genre: Fantasy
 
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Maggie Ann

Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2019, 11:01:18 PM »
As a reader, I'm not a fan of character lists, especially those with half or full page bios. To me, that's just stuffing.

But for a long series with a complex set of characters, a one or two sentence bio would be helpful, especially in a fantasy or sci-fi series. The names can start to run together.

Following a reader request, I've now added a character list and glossary to my first series (fantasy) - so there's one in every book, and I have adjusted it for each book to add new characters so it should follow the development of the series.  I've also put a disclaimer on mine that some details have been changed or omitted to avoid spoilers (there are a lot of bodies in my books).

If you're going to have a character list, I'd suggest that you start as you mean to go on - so put one in the first book, and adjust it as you go.

Yes. I definitely agree with this but please, keep it simple.

Wow, half-page bios? Who has the time?! Agree absolutely with "keep it simple".

I think character sheets could work well as a giveaway for mailing lists, etc, but in books, I don't like too much extra stuff - give me the book, please!

For character lists, I like the ones which just give you enough information to identify the characters - for example, my main character's entry on the list is something like "Arrow - mixed-blood, Erith-trained magician".

Yes, the worst one I read not only had lengthy bios, but then went on to just as lengthy place descriptions after that. Page after page after page after page, ad nauseum. If the book hadn't been on my Kindle, I would have thrown it across the room.

Definitely like your descriptions better, but maybe a couple of words more would be helpful. Just something to place the character in relation to the other characters. "Trained by xxx." OR "Loyal to xxx." OR "Brother of xxx."
           
 
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Al Stevens

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Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2019, 11:20:57 PM »
If each book in a series stands alone, a character list should not be needed. The book's narrative introduces each character with as much info as a reader needs to keep up with the story.

As a reader, I do not care for books with so many prominent characters that I can't keep up with them. That might be a generational thing. Memory's the second thing to go.
     
 
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idontknowyet

Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2019, 12:08:12 AM »
If each book in a series stands alone, a character list should not be needed. The book's narrative introduces each character with as much info as a reader needs to keep up with the story.

As a reader, I do not care for books with so many prominent characters that I can't keep up with them. That might be a generational thing. Memory's the second thing to go.

It's an interconnected series. You really should read them in order.
 

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Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2019, 01:40:19 AM »
It's an interconnected series. You really should read them in order.
Like a serial? Can you stop at any book and be at the end of a story? Or do you have cliff hangers?
     
 
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Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2019, 01:54:15 AM »
I think different issues are getting mixed here. Serials have cliffhangers. A regular series wouldn't necessarily, though sometimes the problem that drives the plot in the following book is at least hinted at in the preceding book.

The need to read a series in order comes from character growth. Ideally, at least the major characters should undergo change. Also, their situations will be different in book four from what they were in book one. Both of these issues are completely independent of whether there are plot cliffhangers or not.

I always try to reintroduce characters enough that my series books could in theory stand alone, but I find some reviewers still complain about having a hard time keeping them straight. The reality is that it's better to read a series in order. That's why it's a series. An exception might be a series with one or two consistent main characters who are interacting with a different group of people and a completely different situation in each novel. Even then, the MCs would basically have to be static.

As far as size of cast is concerned, that depends on genre. No one complains when an epic fantasy has a huge cast. (I think one of my problems, as a lover of both epic and urban fantasy but a writer of urban) is that I have larger character sets than are typical in urban fantasy. They aren't huge in book 1, but they tend to grow as the series progresses.)


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Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2019, 02:51:16 AM »
You can read Robert B. Parker's Spenser series and Jesse Stone series in any order. Same with Updike's Rabbit series. Although the stories share the MC and some secondary characters and span a timeline, they are not interdependent.

This tradition is a holdover from the good ol' days when you went into a bookstore and found the latest book in a series on the shelf. You were not expected nor were you required to have read the earlier books in the series. Not even the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew. :)
     
 
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idontknowyet

Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2019, 09:11:07 AM »
It's an interconnected series. You really should read them in order.
Like a serial? Can you stop at any book and be at the end of a story? Or do you have cliff hangers?

2/3 off the books end in cliff hangers.  The books really should be read in order because of character development and timelines. You can in theory read each internal trilogy seperately, but it will ruin the earlier books for you.

These books definitely aren't epic fantasy. They are contemporary clean/sweet romance.
 

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Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2019, 09:32:48 AM »
You can read Robert B. Parker's Spenser series and Jesse Stone series in any order. Same with Updike's Rabbit series. Although the stories share the MC and some secondary characters and span a timeline, they are not interdependent.

This tradition is a holdover from the good ol' days when you went into a bookstore and found the latest book in a series on the shelf. You were not expected nor were you required to have read the earlier books in the series. Not even the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew. :)
I can see how the plots might not be interdependent, but doesn't reading them out of timeline sequence reduce your appreciation of the character development or leave any puzzling changes in the character that you can't figure out easily? (I'm not considering The Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew when I ask that question, because, if I recall correctly, there wasn't a huge amount of protagonist character development from book to book.)

Parker was a mystery writer, correct? Because I've seen a lot of mysteries that used the same detective but didn't require a particular order. In such cases, the detective and occasionally one or more companions are the only continuing characters, and the plots are independent, so it makes sense that you could read them in any order.

However, that raises an interesting question about how one defines a series. To me, the term series implies deeper integration. Publishers call a group of basically unrelated books with the same protagonist a series sometimes, but they could just as easily be labeled as standalones. Take Agatha Christie for example. The Hercule Poirot books are occasionally called a series, but I don't believe they were initially labeled that way. Same with the Miss Marple books. The only difference I can see with Parker in that regard is that the publisher chose to call the books a series. But, in terms of structure, are they really? Couldn't the Jesse Stone series really have been called Jesse Stone books, the way the Christie's work is referred to as Hercule Poirot books or Miss Marple books?

Sometimes, books united by a common world in fantasy are not even called a series. Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover novels come to mind.

I think I've talked myself into the idea that a true series requires not just some common elements but a sequential presentation that would make it desirable to be read in timeline order. Maybe mystery is an exceptional case. I think the genre lends itself to a more anthology-series approach in which the development is not sequential, but I'm sure that should be the paradigm for series in general.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 09:36:04 AM by Bill Hiatt »


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Al Stevens

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Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2019, 10:13:13 AM »
I can see how the plots might not be interdependent, but doesn't reading them out of timeline sequence reduce your appreciation of the character development or leave any puzzling changes in the character that you can't figure out easily?
No. If the character evolves, that change is not essential to an appreciation of the story as it stands alone. The character is who he or she is at the beginning of the story and at the end. You don't need a previous story to identify him or her.
Parker was a mystery writer, correct?
Correct.
Because I've seen a lot of mysteries that used the same detective but didn't require a particular order. In such cases, the detective and occasionally one or more companions are the only continuing characters, and the plots are independent, so it makes sense that you could read them in any order.
Also correct, and the idiom is not restricted to mysteries.
However, that raises an interesting question about how one defines a series. To me, the term series implies deeper integration. Publishers call a group of basically unrelated books with the same protagonist a series sometimes, but they could just as easily be labeled as standalones.
There is no cover tag that says "standalone" so far. That would be misleading if the book is indeed part of a series of books about the same character. We want our readers to know there are more.
The only difference I can see with Parker in that regard is that the publisher chose to call the books a series.
So would I, but now it's just a matter of semantics.
I think I've talked myself into the idea that a true series requires not just some common elements but a sequential presentation that would make it desirable to be read in timeline order.
That's your definition. I'm not sure what stance the industry would take or even the self-publishing culture as a whole. A publisher's making of such decisions is commonly based on marketing objectives rather than adherence to strict definitions.
Maybe mystery is an exceptional case.
I don't think so. The Updike Rabbit books, for example. In our search for our fitting genre it's us trying to pigeonhole and classify our works into manageable categories when art itself tends to resist such strict classification.

But to return to the original subject matter, in my opinion, a novel--series or standalone--that requires a character list in order for the reader to keep up is flawed. I feel the same way about maps. To each his own.
     
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2019, 04:11:39 AM »
With regard to your last point, I'm not saying a reader would necessarily have to use a character list. In other words, it isn't physically impossible to read the books without it. But not every reader reads the books back-to-back, and not every reader has a good memory. Consequently, I wouldn't go so far as to say that a series is flawed if some readers would benefit from a character list. It's typically a convenience, not a necessity. Anyway, flaws, like everything else, are to some extent a matter of taste. The kind of series you're talking about, where the MC is more or less completely static, might also be considered flawed by some people, though I think most readers have enjoyed that kind of book from time to time.

I'm sure the way books are labeled is often for perceived marketing advantage. However, if we're speaking in terms of literary analysis rather than marketing, that's precisely why I would argue that everything publishers call a series may not be a true series. I'd be the first to admit that's merely my own opinion. I think lumping a whole bunch of book groupings together, some of which are very tightly integrated, and some of which are so loosely integrated that only MC and genre unite them, isn't really useful, and the fact that the labeling isn't consistent makes it even less useful.

We consider the concept of TV series as in some way analogous. There are series that do not have to be watched in a a specific order. Typically those are genre-linked anthologies--but those are usually called anthology series or something like that. I've also seen some of the mystery series that could probably be watched out of order, but even many of them benefit from sequential viewing. Not so long ago, I was having difficulty figuring out the relationships between the characters in an Australian series. Everything became clear when I realized that I'd picked up season 2 by accident when I meant to start with season 1.

When Magnum PI first aired, I watched it with great pleasure, and recently I tried rewatching it. It's somewhere between action and mystery, probably closer to action most of the time, and the shows can be watched out of order. But that's precisely why I didn't like at as well viewing it decades late. Certain elements, like the Magnum-Higgins relationship, are basically static. They fluctuate from time to time, but usually end up back more or less in the same place, which is one of things that makes them less believable. People do change. Relationships do change.

Of course, if a writer is focusing on something like the intricacies of solving a crime rather than on personal relationships, it makes sense the writing could be less sequential. But in anything that's more character-focused, it would seem much harder to pull that off. Sadly, I haven't read the Rabbit Quartet, but I did take a quick look at some of the commentary, and, though one may not need to read the books in order to understand the MCs, it certainly seems as if it would be better to read them in order to get the full impact of Updike's social commentary. In any case, there's a clear chronological progression. I have a hard time imagining a reader deliberately reading them out of order, even if they are understandable that way.

As with so many other things, to each his own. grint


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Al Stevens

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Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2019, 07:21:10 AM »
Books in a series don't always say, "Book #2 in the Sam Shovel series" on the cover. More likely they say, "Sam Shovel Mystery #2" or "A Sam Shovel Novel," or some such, so a clear distinction between serial and standalone novel might not be made on the cover.

I never liked Magnum P.I. At a typical episode's climax, Magnum would gun down three or four bad guys, killing them dead on a pier or in a factory or somewhere. Then, in the next scene, he'd be sitting in a cafe chewing the fat and laughing it up with his buddies and never once have to deal with the consequences of those multiple killings nor show any feelings whatsoever about them. Not my kind of protagonist nor my kind of story.

But again, to each his own...
     
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: How soon is too soon?
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2019, 12:29:21 AM »
Books in a series don't always say, "Book #2 in the Sam Shovel series" on the cover. More likely they say, "Sam Shovel Mystery #2" or "A Sam Shovel Novel," or some such, so a clear distinction between serial and standalone novel might not be made on the cover.

I never liked Magnum P.I. At a typical episode's climax, Magnum would gun down three or four bad guys, killing them dead on a pier or in a factory or somewhere. Then, in the next scene, he'd be sitting in a cafe chewing the fat and laughing it up with his buddies and never once have to deal with the consequences of those multiple killings nor show any feelings whatsoever about them. Not my kind of protagonist nor my kind of story.

But again, to each his own...
Well, true enough with regard to the way books are designated, though in the examples I was using, like Agatha Christie, at least in the books of hers that I've read, I've never seen a series designation anywhere.

It's true that Magnum P.I. does have exactly the kind of lack of emotional consequence that you mention. That's something else that didn't register on me the first time I saw it. It was more common then to have shoot-outs on TV in which people died, but there wasn't as much (or any) soul-searching about it afterwards. Perhaps I'm more sensitive to such issues now that I have to work with characterization all the time. Or perhaps it's more noticeable with the rise of the "hero who never kills" trope. (If someone really needs killing, one of the other bad guys does it.)


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