Author Topic: Leaving Amazon  (Read 8042 times)

guest1291

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Leaving Amazon
« on: May 22, 2019, 01:28:31 PM »
I realize the income will take a hit, but I've been thinking about ditching Amazon altogether and just going with my Patreon account exclusively and try to build a readership and a steady monthly income there by continuously feeding it new content. Just wondering if any other authors have been feeling similarly and are thinking of giving that idea a go?
 

Simon Haynes

Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2019, 01:33:19 PM »
I'm wide, but Amazon represents just under 70% of my royalties.

Short answer: no.

If you can make Patreon work for you, that's great, but I suggest building up the readership and monthly income while you're still selling everywhere else.

E.g. write new content for Patreon subscribers, leave your old stuff on Amazon and so on. See how it works out.

 

LilyBLily

Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2019, 04:03:13 AM »
The people I know who are using Patreon also sell on Amazon. They’re just not exclusive to KU.
 

David VanDyke

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Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2019, 07:01:21 AM »
Seems to me that it makes sense to be either KDP Select, or wide on everything you can. Ditching Amazon and all the other vendors for Patreon only seems risky.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 02:29:05 PM by David VanDyke »
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notthatamanda

Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2019, 07:22:25 AM »
Disclaimer - I know nothing about Patreon, but if you want to do a monthly, you could do a monthly, then when you have a book size amount of it, publish it on Amazon (not in KU). 
 

Jake

Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2019, 11:50:52 PM »
I realize the income will take a hit, but I've been thinking about ditching Amazon altogether and just going with my Patreon account exclusively and try to build a readership and a steady monthly income there by continuously feeding it new content. Just wondering if any other authors have been feeling similarly and are thinking of giving that idea a go?

Patreon isn't really a platform for building a readership. It's an extra tool you can use if you already have a fanbase.

Regardless of the size of your fanbase the idea of ditching Amazon completely doesn't make much sense. My suggestion would be to list your books wide and use Patreon for extra income by posting your works in progress on a chapter by chapter basis as you write them.
 

LilyBLily

Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2019, 06:42:28 AM »
I realize the income will take a hit, but I've been thinking about ditching Amazon altogether and just going with my Patreon account exclusively and try to build a readership and a steady monthly income there by continuously feeding it new content. Just wondering if any other authors have been feeling similarly and are thinking of giving that idea a go?

Patreon isn't really a platform for building a readership. It's an extra tool you can use if you already have a fanbase.

Regardless of the size of your fanbase the idea of ditching Amazon completely doesn't make much sense. My suggestion would be to list your books wide and use Patreon for extra income by posting your works in progress on a chapter by chapter basis as you write them.

You offer your Patreons free or early access to something, or little bonuses, or an exclusive blog in which you tell them what's coming out soon, or the like. Some Patreons simply support whatever it is you're doing without the need for a freebie. Patreon is not itself a way of finding fans; it's a way of reminding fans that what you're doing that they like costs you some effort and money, and you'd appreciate their support. There are several other versions of online tip jars. But first, you know, you have to play the music...
 

She-la-te-da

Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2019, 04:40:18 PM »
I agree with the others, and think this isn't the right way to go. Like it or not, for most of us Amazon is the big market. It wouldn't be wise to throw that away unless you're the rare person with a huge fan base already.
I write various flavors of speculative fiction. This is my main pen name.

 

sliderule

Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2019, 07:32:58 PM »
 

PJ Post

Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2019, 05:21:16 AM »
I realize the income will take a hit, but I've been thinking about ditching Amazon altogether and just going with my Patreon account exclusively and try to build a readership and a steady monthly income there by continuously feeding it new content. Just wondering if any other authors have been feeling similarly and are thinking of giving that idea a go?

Patreon isn't really a platform for building a readership. It's an extra tool you can use if you already have a fanbase.

I'm not trying to pick on you here, but this thinking is kind of dogmatic, in that it's judging a platform based upon how it has been leveraged in the past, which in no way limits its future potential.

With that said, to the OP: stick with Amazon, even passively, because it probably won't hurt your brand in the short term. If you build a large enough audience on another platform to benefit from exclusivity, then pull your Amazon offerings - so that you don't compete with yourself. For example, in a post-scarcity world, we can create scarcity by unpublishing our books, and then offering them again as limited editions during a compressed retail window.

This creative gig is not now, nor has it ever been a one-size-fits-all thing. Your mileage will abso-f*cking-lutely vary.

To the larger publishing issues, yes, I think Amazon has become a racket. I'm working on identifying and/or creating an alternative platform(s), one that focuses more on the Artist's financial and creative opportunities, and the quality of the work, as opposed to wasting time figuring out workarounds to overcome systemic incompetence, or developing strategies to deal with Hatters; not to mention the fact that Amazon, as a strategic platform, has intentionally reduced the importance of literature to that of a disposable commodity, not so dissimilar from a greeting card.

Except, of course, greeting cards cost more than most novels.

 

Vidya

Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2019, 11:58:42 AM »
“I'm working on identifying and/or creating an alternative platform(s),”
 
yes, this is what we should be working on. I wonder if it would stand a greater chance of success if we also made it a social media site? People do gravitate to new social media sites f they offer something new that they cant get elsewhere. Maybe a site where readers can both buy books and also have profiles as on FB and can also blog and interact with both writers and their own friends and family?

Basically, it cant be just another ebook site. we’ve seen so many e-publishers, even ones with big names, go under. Ours has to offer enough value to tempt people to use it. That might have to be something not offered so far or not to a large enough extent.
 

Tom Wood

Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2019, 12:18:50 PM »
In my brief but exciting moment as a member of a famous Facebook group that is sponsored by a famous guru, I suggested that it's a mistake to try to sell books online because the people who are online do not read books. I was duly abused.

I'm not entirely convinced that I'm wrong.
 

PJ Post

Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2019, 01:09:38 AM »
“I'm working on identifying and/or creating an alternative platform(s),”
 
yes, this is what we should be working on. I wonder if it would stand a greater chance of success if we also made it a social media site? People do gravitate to new social media sites f they offer something new that they cant get elsewhere. Maybe a site where readers can both buy books and also have profiles as on FB and can also blog and interact with both writers and their own friends and family?

Basically, it cant be just another ebook site. we’ve seen so many e-publishers, even ones with big names, go under. Ours has to offer enough value to tempt people to use it. That might have to be something not offered so far or not to a large enough extent.

Amazon's business model is basically Mail Order, first popularized by Montgomery Ward back in 1872. At the end of the day, the internet is just a catalog, but instead of having to go down to the local merchant to peruse it, we can now do so on the couch. We need a fundamental shakeup, a revolution that completely re-imagines how people relate to the written word, especially fiction - not incremental change or better marketing.

Sadly, the biggest obstacles to taking back some measure of control are the writers and publishers themselves, because they cannot imagine anything different:

This is the technology.
These are the products.
These are the categories.
These are the distribution channels.
This is how they are marketed.
There can be nothing else
.

And to back up that myopic thinking, they'll post unqualified anecdotes of success and failure, as well as single-purpose data. They'll cite how they have learned to navigate the morass of bullsh*t to earn a decent buck, even if the percentage is low. And through it all, every one of them will virulently ignore the fact that Amazon could end KDP tomorrow. I've seen it happen in other industries - a lot.

If authors want to protect their future, save themselves from the commodity pool and retain some measure of self-determination, we're going to have to do something drastically different.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 01:15:17 AM by PJ Post »

 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2019, 01:13:22 AM »
In my brief but exciting moment as a member of a famous Facebook group that is sponsored by a famous guru, I suggested that it's a mistake to try to sell books online because the people who are online do not read books. I was duly abused.

I'm not entirely convinced that I'm wrong.
Like so many other things, we don't really have enough data to know one way or the other. However, logic would suggest that, since almost everyone who isn't in really bad financial circumstances is online to some extent, and since a lot of people still buy books, it stands to reason that most of these book buyers must also be online. How much they're online is another question. An argument could be made that people who are online huge amounts of time probably aren't reading books as much.


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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2019, 01:51:25 AM »
“I'm working on identifying and/or creating an alternative platform(s),”
 
yes, this is what we should be working on. I wonder if it would stand a greater chance of success if we also made it a social media site? People do gravitate to new social media sites f they offer something new that they cant get elsewhere. Maybe a site where readers can both buy books and also have profiles as on FB and can also blog and interact with both writers and their own friends and family?

Basically, it cant be just another ebook site. we’ve seen so many e-publishers, even ones with big names, go under. Ours has to offer enough value to tempt people to use it. That might have to be something not offered so far or not to a large enough extent.

Amazon's business model is basically Mail Order, first popularized by Montgomery Ward back in 1872. At the end of the day, the internet is just a catalog, but instead of having to go down to the local merchant to peruse it, we can now do so on the couch. We need a fundamental shakeup, a revolution that completely re-imagines how people relate to the written word, especially fiction - not incremental change or better marketing.

Sadly, the biggest obstacles to taking back some measure of control are the writers and publishers themselves, because they cannot imagine anything different:

This is the technology.
These are the products.
These are the categories.
These are the distribution channels.
This is how they are marketed.
There can be nothing else
.

And to back up that myopic thinking, they'll post unqualified anecdotes of success and failure, as well as single-purpose data. They'll cite how they have learned to navigate the morass of bullsh*t to earn a decent buck, even if the percentage is low. And through it all, every one of them will virulently ignore the fact that Amazon could end KDP tomorrow. I've seen it happen in other industries - a lot.

If authors want to protect their future, save themselves from the commodity pool and retain some measure of self-determination, we're going to have to do something drastically different.
I applaud the desire to try new things. (If Barnes and Noble had been thinking that way some years back, it could have avoided its long, painful decline. If Borders had done so, it might still be in business.)

At the same time, I don't fully agree with your criticism of writers and publishers. You can hardly blame people who've found a formula that works for them for wanting to stick with it. There are people making good money under the existing system, after all--and not necessarily at a low percentage.

Remember also that you aren't yet offering a concrete alternative. I know that you're researching and will doubtless have something to suggest at some point, but right now you're arguing the current model is bad without promoting a new one. It's hard to get people to jump on the bandwagon before it starts rolling.

For instance, maybe you'll find a great new way to use Patreon as a publishing vehicle. However, since there are people who've tried that in the past and haven't succeeded, you can understand why people might be skeptical.

Also, part of the obstacle to change is that the customers can't imagine anything different. I've seen new models launch and fail. It wasn't that the promoters weren't willing to try something new--it was that the customers weren't. You could have a great idea for a new way of selling books, but if the customers don't see the possibilities, then that idea will fail.

It's great that you are exploring new ideas. I'm not trying to discourage you at all. I'm just encouraging you to be patient with those who aren't willing to go all-in on an idea that isn't fleshed out yet and hasn't had a chance to develop a track record. Once you've gotten a little further in your process, it'll be easier to convince people to try something similar.


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PJ Post

Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2019, 03:25:58 AM »
I'm not fisking you here, just answering each point in turn because I think it's a pretty serious discussion.    :cheers

“I'm working on identifying and/or creating an alternative platform(s),”
 
yes, this is what we should be working on. I wonder if it would stand a greater chance of success if we also made it a social media site? People do gravitate to new social media sites f they offer something new that they cant get elsewhere. Maybe a site where readers can both buy books and also have profiles as on FB and can also blog and interact with both writers and their own friends and family?

Basically, it cant be just another ebook site. we’ve seen so many e-publishers, even ones with big names, go under. Ours has to offer enough value to tempt people to use it. That might have to be something not offered so far or not to a large enough extent.

Amazon's business model is basically Mail Order, first popularized by Montgomery Ward back in 1872. At the end of the day, the internet is just a catalog, but instead of having to go down to the local merchant to peruse it, we can now do so on the couch. We need a fundamental shakeup, a revolution that completely re-imagines how people relate to the written word, especially fiction - not incremental change or better marketing.

Sadly, the biggest obstacles to taking back some measure of control are the writers and publishers themselves, because they cannot imagine anything different:

This is the technology.
These are the products.
These are the categories.
These are the distribution channels.
This is how they are marketed.
There can be nothing else
.

And to back up that myopic thinking, they'll post unqualified anecdotes of success and failure, as well as single-purpose data. They'll cite how they have learned to navigate the morass of bullsh*t to earn a decent buck, even if the percentage is low. And through it all, every one of them will virulently ignore the fact that Amazon could end KDP tomorrow. I've seen it happen in other industries - a lot.

If authors want to protect their future, save themselves from the commodity pool and retain some measure of self-determination, we're going to have to do something drastically different.

I applaud the desire to try new things. (If Barnes and Noble had been thinking that way some years back, it could have avoided its long, painful decline. If Borders had done so, it might still be in business.)

At the same time, I don't fully agree with your criticism of writers and publishers. You can hardly blame people who've found a formula that works for them for wanting to stick with it. There are people making good money under the existing system, after all--and not necessarily at a low percentage.

I'm not blaming everyone per se, I'm really targeting the dogmatic group-think that defines the current echo-chamber. Everyone talks about what works for them, but, in almost every case, it's a course on workarounds. And I doubt many people are making Genuine Real JobTM income. I think some are, and many more are making extra cash - which is all really cool. But to be competitive in this arena, most have to publish fast and invest heavily in ad spends. That's not how this is supposed to work. Again, just because some have figured out how to leverage the existing system does not legitimize it.

Quote
Remember also that you aren't yet offering a concrete alternative. I know that you're researching and will doubtless have something to suggest at some point, but right now you're arguing the current model is bad without promoting a new one. It's hard to get people to jump on the bandwagon before it starts rolling.

I'm arguing the current model is a racket, one designed to screw Indies on both ends. Amazon's store has been in flux from way back; it's safe to assume that it's only a matter of time until the royalties change. Remember: Your margin is my opportunity - Bezos. Really, I'm just playing the role of provocateur - greasing the wheels, so that when an alternative does arrive, writers and publishers might be a little more open to it.

As for the concrete alternative, regardless of who gets there first, it's going to be worth billions of dollars. So, forgive me for not delineating my business plan in a public forum.  Grin

Quote
For instance, maybe you'll find a great new way to use Patreon as a publishing vehicle. However, since there are people who've tried that in the past and haven't succeeded, you can understand why people might be skeptical.

True, but we have to realize that for any business endeavor, the failure of others has no bearing on our own personal success. We analyze, correct and continue to learn and adapt.

Quote
Also, part of the obstacle to change is that the customers can't imagine anything different. I've seen new models launch and fail. It wasn't that the promoters weren't willing to try something new--it was that the customers weren't. You could have a great idea for a new way of selling books, but if the customers don't see the possibilities, then that idea will fail.

Customers will adopt whatever they're given. I know this sounds cold, but it's the truth, backed up by industry after industry. Does anyone really need a 4K TV when there's next to no programming available? The important aspect to understand is that they won't adopt quickly. And this is what turns off most businesses from trying anything new, they want instant profits. Amazon took years to get there, losing money on every sale; but Bezos was playing the long game.

Quote
It's great that you are exploring new ideas. I'm not trying to discourage you at all. I'm just encouraging you to be patient with those who aren't willing to go all-in on an idea that isn't fleshed out yet and hasn't had a chance to develop a track record. Once you've gotten a little further in your process, it'll be easier to convince people to try something similar.

Like I said, I'm just stirring up trouble, getting people to think. How many of us have completely burned out? How many of us are writing admitted crap because we have to publish so fast? How many of us are losing sleep trying to figure out Amazon's latest algorithm changes, or AMS spends. Should we use Facebook? Are the old promotion sites still working? After 100 submissions, they still can't get a Bookbub. This is the tail wagging the dog.

Sorry, but when your entire business model depends utterly on the kindness of the one you're negotiating against - that's really really (and I can't say this strongly enough), really bad f*cking business.

I know how the new mouse trap will work, from the financials to the platform interface and new technology, including the marketing - but I'm not a coder, which makes the implementation kind of tricky. lol, and the last thing I want is to invest all of this time and money only to have my hired-gun coders Zuckerberg me.

But rest assured, from one corner or another, change is in the air...

 :banana-riding-llama-smiley-em
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 03:32:45 AM by PJ Post »

 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2019, 09:42:16 AM »
All very interesting, as always.

You know, the publish-fast-to-keep-juicing-the-new-release-algorithm method of publishing is ironically the kind of innovation you're talking about--though clearly not one most of us want to keep pace with. (I couldn't even if I wanted to.) But it's a product of people adapting to changing conditions, and it's unquestionably a departure from old models. And it's already spawned a related innovation--a team of authors working under one pen name to keep up with the pace. The first model didn't really exist that much until recently. Neither did the second one (a few outliers like the Nancy Drew series aside).

One could argue that the use of social media for advertising is relatively new, though certainly not as new (but new in relation to the 1870s launch of catalog sales you were talking about. I'm not sure we're standing still quite as much as you indicate.

As far as customers adopting whatever they're given, yes and no. Yes if every company serves up the same thing. Not necessarily if they don't. The fact that someone launches a new sales paradigm, for example, doesn't mean it will take off. There needs to be something for the customer in it. (With 4K TVs it's the bright-and-shiny factor, the appeal of new technology. If what I've read is true, it can play legacy media, and more stuff will be available with time, so that isn't as irrational as you made it sound.) Amazon succeeded as a book store because it was cheaper and in some cases more convenient. To dislodge Amazon's model, you'd need something that offers people more.

And no, I don't expect you to divulge your business plan. I was responded to what sounded like disappointment on your part that people weren't responding to your rallying cry. It sounds as if I misjudged your state of mind if you're just stirring the pot.


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PJ Post

Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2019, 08:53:23 AM »
And no, I don't expect you to divulge your business plan. I was responded to what sounded like disappointment on your part that people weren't responding to your rallying cry. It sounds as if I misjudged your state of mind if you're just stirring the pot.

Well, if I'd actually written one...  grint

But seriously, please don't misunderstand, I'm not stirring for the sake of stirring. The entertainment industry is changing fast, that is, in every market except publishing. Distribution channels have a stranglehold on writers and publishers. The only thing changing here is how many new and different ways they can squeeze us. Nevertheless, the reality is, even though I think I have a pretty good idea about where the market is going, as well as what's necessary for such a venture to work long-term, I'm not sure I can get there from here, resource-wise - hence the discussion. I'd be happy if someone else did it just so I could move my books over.

The model is relatively easy to figure out:

What is Amazon et al doing badly?
How do we rectify that?
What do readers want?
What turns readers off?

How is Amazon et al mistreating writers?
How do we rectify that?
What do writers want?
What turns writers off?

The intersection of the answers to these questions is the market demand sweet spot, for both readers and creatives. Seriously, make a long list of answers to each question. Don't worry about the 'how' of it, just write it all down, even if some of the solutions are just the exact opposite of the problems, or sound completely wonky.

Beyond that, the core requirement is to separate the wheat from the chaff. No one can compete with Amazon or any of the other distribution channels in a commodity market, so the first order of business is to accept a curated distribution channel. The next part is to reject the current market of Things, such as books and digital files, and embrace a market based upon Access. If side-loading comes up in the discussion, you're thinking about the whole thing wrong.

So that's the billion dollar idea in a nutshell, well, there a few more bits, but that's the crux of it. With that said...

Now is ze time on Sprockets vhen ve dance!...   :banana:
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 08:59:26 AM by PJ Post »

 
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shadcallister

Re: Leaving Amazon
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2019, 04:01:03 AM »
Interesting idea. A Netflix of books, basically? Subscription access to a curated/targeted menu of fiction titles.

Sounds like a mix of TradPub's curation with Kindle Unlimited's subscriber model. KU has been most useful to whale readers (offer me everything in this genre and I will read it all!). TradPub has been most useful to general readerships (sell me the one book I should read this month/year). This new mixture would probably be for general readerships (unless it were a genre-specific platform) but would encourage more reading from them (like Netflix does for video) because it would answer the question of what should I read and make the transaction as painless as turning on the TV.
 
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