Author Topic: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...  (Read 494 times)

David VanDyke

"Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« on: June 02, 2019, 04:43:39 PM »
I'm in fairly new D&D group, old-school, low key, lots of fun. Nobody younger than 30 except this one guy about 22. I guess you'd call him a Millennial? Some guys like me have played since the 1970s.

By the 5th session, I know this guy is cheating. Never misses a roll he needs to make. Rolls a 1, calls a 6 and snatches up the dice. Does stuff like this over and over. Does other objectionable stuff like constantly using player knowledge when his character doesn't know things, but this dice cheating was the most blatant.

I call him on it, of course he denies it, but I was able to make my case. He leaves mumbling obscenities. The rest of us play on.

Seems like a total Reverse Pascal to me (big risk, tiny payoff). Risk your reputation and game in order to...what? Always get initiative? Always hit? It's not like there were chips or money at stake here... and there's no "winning."

I'm not meaning to smear millennials, but it's hard not to think there's a matter of entitled youth at work here--or just having played too many computer "RPGs" that are not RPGs at all, where the goal is merely to level up and kill monsters. Does it take a computer to keep a game fair anymore? Come to think about it, when I used to play online games like WOW and Starcraft, there were always hackers ruining it for others.

Still SMH.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 04:45:49 PM by David VanDyke »
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VanessaC

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2019, 05:15:40 PM »
Seems a pretty silly way of cheating - did he think you (and  the others) wouldn't notice?!

Not sure whether it's a generational thing, or the super-competitive mentality of "I must win at all costs" which often comes with the mentality of "I can never be wrong - not ever, not even when I'm blatantly wrong".

This seems weird to me - but then, I'm not a naturally competitive person.
 

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Jeff Tanyard

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2019, 06:44:26 PM »
Seems a pretty silly way of cheating - did he think you (and  the others) wouldn't notice?!


Yeah, this.  If you're going to cheat at dice, you either throw them where nobody can see, or you use loaded dice.  If he's tossing normal dice where others can see, then, well, I just don't get it.   :confused:
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Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2019, 06:51:54 PM »
He sounds like a wonderful basis for a character to explore in a fantasy portal or LitRPG type of story. Huge self-esteem issues that can be resolved in a game setting. Mind if I 'borrow' him for a while?
 
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Dormouse

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2019, 07:20:01 PM »
or just having played too many computer "RPGs" that are not RPGs at all, where the goal is merely to level up and kill monsters.
I'd say it's probably this.
I've seen a few of these, though never so crude. I think it started with single player 'games', computer games and the developers encouraging a mindset that was all about magic items, rapid levelling up &etc.
I can remember one of these as a DM introducing a massive XP monster that was very easy to hit purely so that the party acquired those massive XPs; he never understood why the group didn't like him as a DM - and he was only a year or two younger than the average age of the group.
Having been through it a couple of times, I was put off new groups with players I didn't know.
 

LilyBLily

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2019, 10:30:32 PM »
Testosterone presses certain personality types to win at any cost.

There are a couple of males I know and even love with whom I will not play any game. They're cutthroat or they get angry if they don't win. It's a GAME. But to them it's obviously something more.

It's not all males. I know plenty of nonaggressive guys. But some simply are ultracompetitive and I have observed this across generations.

I've met some females who are similar even though they may use different tactics, such as--I hate to be cliche about this but it's true--charm and b*tchery and social pressure on others to "be nice" and "not cause a scene." Softer tools, but effective. I'm remembering a Monopoly game in which one female used social pressure ("influence") to get another to be more "cooperative" and one male was furious because it worked.

Cheating is merely a shortcut; I believe that can be how cheaters see it. We used to buy "cheat" paperbacks to "win" at video games. And don't people still look for hacks online for same?

Actual live in-person gaming involves social rules. In a social setting the implicit rules guiding behavior might not be clear to your ex-player. He might never have been told outright to play fair at role-playing games because these are the games typically never played with parents. Also, as a youngster playing with older people, he might have felt pressure to demonstrate that he was as good at the game as the more experienced players.

I'm sure there always have been people who cheat. Think of all those westerns at which cheating at poker was a killing offense. I don't think writers just made up such scenes; they undoubtedly happened because money was involved, which probably explained part of the desperation to cheat. I'm willing to bet people cheated at bridge when it was a super popular social entertainment, too.

So it probably all goes back to a personality that is unwilling to accept even a petty loss. Which is a rotten way to live because life throws losses at us constantly.
 

OfficialEthanJ

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2019, 11:59:41 PM »
In myyyyyy daaaayyyy (snort, cough), problem players were dealt with by the DM. (For example, that must-have magic item was -- sad trombone -- majorly cursed, so there went that "must hit" roll.) So no, it shouldn't take a computer to guarantee fairness.
 

PJ Post

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2019, 02:28:06 AM »
Not 'getting it' is just one of the new-millennium's social pandemics.
 

DrewMcGunn

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2019, 11:29:27 AM »
I'm with Ethan. Where was the GM? I've gamed with people who fudged die rolls and the GM had a tendency to let the smackdown fall on them.

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Simon Haynes

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2019, 12:56:08 PM »
I play board games with a couple of friends most weeks, and in seven years of gaming I know none of us have deliberately cheated. Occasionally someone will stuff up the rules of a new game, but the other two shout them down instantly.

We all act laid back and complacent but it's pretty competitive. I genuinely don't care whether I win or lose, as I enjoy the game, but I don't pull any punches. One of the others takes every setback in the game as a challenge to do better, considers his strategy at length on every turn, and is determined to win everything. The third member plays on her ipad the whole time, draws in a sketchbook on the side, has her turn in seconds and usually wins by a healthy margin.


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Sarah

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2019, 01:12:58 PM »
I don't think it's a millennial thing. I tend to play mostly with millennials and we usually have a great time. In fact I've found playing with them to be more fun and roleplay heavy, than playing with those closer to my own age who seem to prefer combat and strategy. *shrug*
 

Jake

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2019, 01:51:37 PM »
I don't think it's a millennial thing either, I think you just happened to have a player who was a douchebag.
 
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Sela

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Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2019, 03:48:29 PM »
My grandfather cheated at cribbage when playing against an 8-year old me (who happened to be one of those stinking lucky novices who always win at cards). I loved him dearly, but he couldn't stand to not win, even against a kid. Some people are just really competitive. They feel a need to win no matter what. It may be self-esteem issues. It may be elevated hormones. It may be genetic. Who can say? It is definitely not a millennial thing.  :icon_cool:
 

David VanDyke

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2019, 04:21:13 PM »
I'm with Ethan. Where was the GM? I've gamed with people who fudged die rolls and the GM had a tendency to let the smackdown fall on them.

The GM hasn't GMed in 30 years, and he likes to GM from the end of the long table instead of the middle like I do, so he couldn't see the die rolls. And he trusts everyone, which is the way it should be.
Never listen to people with no skin in the game.
 

notthatamanda

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2019, 08:23:10 PM »
My grandfather cheated at cribbage when playing against an 8-year old me (who happened to be one of those stinking lucky novices who always win at cards). I loved him dearly, but he couldn't stand to not win, even against a kid. Some people are just really competitive. They feel a need to win no matter what. It may be self-esteem issues. It may be elevated hormones. It may be genetic. Who can say? It is definitely not a millennial thing.  :icon_cool:
Is your grandfather my grandmother?  And is cribbage slang for rummy where you're from?
 

PJ Post

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2019, 12:39:35 AM »
America has seen a rampant rise in douchbaggery in recent years as well.
 

oganalp

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2019, 01:44:21 AM »
It is not a millennial thing. Technically, I am a millennial as well, even though right by the border. I grew up with cRPGs and pretty much played every cRPG out there. I never cheated in any tabletop game, nor felt the need to cheat. It is more about the individual's character than it is about 1/4th of the planet's population.

You were unlucky; you bumped into a douchebag.

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LilyBLily

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2019, 01:49:48 AM »
The sad thing is that he kept doing it and then he walked away rather than play honestly. Lesson not learned.
 

DougM

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2019, 03:26:08 AM »
Failure is an important part of the game. I've argued far too often with people who don't see the value of that.
 

VanessaC

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2019, 03:37:55 AM »
Failure is an important part of the game. I've argued far too often with people who don't see the value of that.

Yes, this - failing (or not succeeding!) is a large part of how I learn, not just at games.  Was listening to a podcast at the weekend with a very well known indie author who was talking about "failing forward", which is a great way of looking at it.
 

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David VanDyke

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2019, 04:49:16 AM »
Failure is also fun in RPGs, where the consequences are so mild. Failure makes for the best, funniest stories--and when I RPG, I'm in it for the stories. If I want to play "dungeon crawl adventure fight" I'll play a computer game like WOW or Diablo or Wesnoth. Maybe that's what this guy didn't get...seems like it now I think about it. We used to call it minimaxing--trying to come up with every advantage by every trick you could.
Never listen to people with no skin in the game.
 

DougM

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2019, 04:53:51 AM »
Yes, this - failing (or not succeeding!) is a large part of how I learn, not just at games.  Was listening to a podcast at the weekend with a very well known indie author who was talking about "failing forward", which is a great way of looking at it.

Same here. Those whose skills are the most robust have usually had to work through their own failures. And when it comes to writing, finding a niche or the zeitgeist isn't on a timetable. Quite the opposite, it's all that failure that sets you up for later success. Finding the right place requires going through some wrong places first, and even then, there are no guarantees. There are never guarantees. I believe that doing everything right can still give you a flop. In this business, I've notices that winning formulas don't last long.
 

DougM

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2019, 04:59:56 AM »
Failure is also fun in RPGs, where the consequences are so mild. Failure makes for the best, funniest stories--and when I RPG, I'm in it for the stories. If I want to play "dungeon crawl adventure fight" I'll play a computer game like WOW or Diablo or Wesnoth. Maybe that's what this guy didn't get...seems like it now I think about it. We used to call it minimaxing--trying to come up with every advantage by every trick you could.

The more modern term is optimizing, but that's different than cheating.

I used to do lots of comedy RPG (Teenagers from Outer Space, an amazing game), where I had to teach my wife, "Lean into failure." Once she got it, she got it.

Come to think of it, I write my books that way. I'll set up a battle plan knowing that it has to go wrong. Characters who have to think on their feet are ever so much more interesting than characters who are perfect.
 

laundrymaid

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2019, 09:38:44 AM »
Failure is also fun in RPGs, where the consequences are so mild. Failure makes for the best, funniest stories--and when I RPG, I'm in it for the stories.

Absolutely.  Iíve done some RPGs with my kids, and itís our epic failures that make for the most hilarious memories.  Winning is so ordinary, but my son still roars with laughter about his brother and I getting the whole party killed because we were too pig-headed to back out of a fight.  Of course, he also reminds us that we were idiots.
 

DrewMcGunn

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2019, 11:09:32 PM »
Failure is also fun in RPGs, where the consequences are so mild. Failure makes for the best, funniest stories--and when I RPG, I'm in it for the stories. If I want to play "dungeon crawl adventure fight" I'll play a computer game like WOW or Diablo or Wesnoth. Maybe that's what this guy didn't get...seems like it now I think about it. We used to call it minimaxing--trying to come up with every advantage by every trick you could.

True. Some of the people I gamed with thought we were roll-playing., where every part of the game came down to a stat on a character sheet. Some of us thought we were role playing. Back when I played, I took pride in figuring out ways for the party to avoid rolling the dice and to solve the problem through really role playing the scenario.

Of course, when I as the rogue tried to sweet talk some antagonist out of something and I had to roll that low Charisma score, I knew it was time to sharpen the daggers and get the D20s out of the Crown Royal bag, because stuff was about to get interesting.

Drew McGunn
 
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Edward M. Grant

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2019, 04:51:38 AM »
Maybe suggest a game of Paranoia.

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Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2019, 05:26:51 PM »
There always seems to be one in every group who is there to be difficult. I play with all millenials in all my groups, and there's usually just one member who complains about stuff or tries to pull stupid stunts that messes with the roleplaying part.

However, I don't get roll cheating at all. Half the fun of D&D is crit failing and having everything go horribly wrong!  grint
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David VanDyke

Re: "Adult" cheating in D&D...now I've seen everything...
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2019, 03:55:41 PM »
It's part of the principle of 20% of the people causing 80% of the problems. I'm thinking of writing a dystopian series incorporating this principle...

Unfortunately, I'm not the DM, nor am I the host.

Fortunately, the fallout got him to depart without too much trouble.

Never listen to people with no skin in the game.