As an editor and writer I just want to say...

[The Bass Bagwhan]

You see a lot of threads here suggesting that some writers slave, stress and worry over their MS before sending it to a professional editor. It's  a bit like madly cleaning your house before the professional cleaners arrive to do exactly that. Editors don't judge you — we work with you to improve your workflow, presentation and all the rest of the creative process. The correct time to send your MS to a professional editor is that tipping point when it becomes less productive to continue tweaking your MS rather than writing new material.
Basically, I reckon a lot of writers can send their MS to an editor a lot earlier and benefit from the feedback and input, rather than trying to get a "pass mark" from that editor.

[Dennis Chekalov]

I can't agree more.

[Maggie Ann]

Absolutely. I do one edit as I go and then another edit on completion. Any more than that and I'll send myself into an agony of despair ... or the slough of despond.

It doesn't matter how many passes I make anyway. I'm too close to the material and I need that objective set of eyes to steer me right. Unfortunately, I'm always surprised at the amount of red that comes back.

Thank goodness for editors.

[VanessaC]

Excellent post, thank you.

I suspect this may also be something that develops with experience - I suspect (and have zero evidence for this!) that newer authors probably polish a lot more because it takes a while to recognise that adjusting the commas isn't really a good use of your time, and it's long past time to hand the thing over to the experts.

Not the same as editing, but my first book(s) I spent ages adjusting, readjusting, etc, before I sent them to beta readers.  My latest (currently out for beta reading) I spent a lot less polishing time on before I sent it out because I was able to recognise that I'd reached the point where I know it's still flawed, but I can't see the flaws. I also got to that point much more quickly on book 6 than I did on books 1 and 2.

[APP]

Absolutely. I do one edit as I go and then another edit on completion.

Ditto for me.

However, IMO, it only works if the writer has experience and has been writing for a while.

If a writer is just starting out . . . or only has a few books under their belt, then I disagree with the original post. I can't speak for others, but it's been my experience that the less polished a manuscript is, the more it's going to cost to have it edited.

To wit: A copy editor might say they charge between xxx and yyy per word, but if your manuscript isn't very polished, you'll pay the higher price.

[JRTomlin]

Maybe I am like a fanatical housekeeper who then hires a cleaner to clean. I cannot stand to knowingly leave errors in my work. I always re-read my previous day's work (aloud) and make changes and corrections before I go on to do more writing. At this point, I'm highly unlikely to change. I think it may depend on the author's writing process and personality.

I am the author and I'm the one responsible for getting it right.  (Me not listening  )

[Al Stevens]

Editing your own work is not a waste of time and effort if you enjoy doing it.

[She-la-te-da]

The cleaner the manuscript, the less the editor is going to need to do, thus saving money. It's entirely up to the writer how much they want to do before consulting an editor. A lot will depend on what type of editing they're paying for.

[Maggie Ann]

Maybe I am like a fanatical housekeeper who then hires a cleaner to clean. I cannot stand to knowingly leave errors in my work. I always re-read my previous day's work (aloud) and make changes and corrections before I go on to do more writing. At this point, I'm highly unlikely to change. I think it may depend on the author's writing process and personality.

I am the author and I'm the one responsible for getting it right.  (Me not listening  )

Reading it out loud is an excellent idea. I know one author who uploaded his doc to the Kindle and turned on TTS so he could hear it. I think you pick up a lot more that way. Can that be done on the newer Kindles?

[notthatamanda]

Reading it out loud is an excellent idea. I know one author who uploaded his doc to the Kindle and turned on TTS so he could hear it. I think you pick up a lot more that way. Can that be done on the newer Kindles?

Word will do this for you, you can pick from three different voices, as far as I know.  It's pretty robotic, but helpful.  I haven't been able to force myself to listen to more than a chapter here of there though.

[JRTomlin]

You could probably do it on a Kindle. I like to read it myself because it forces me to actually pay attention to each word. I must admit I find it easy to kind of zone out otherwise. And since I do it one day's work at a time, it's not too hard.

[Jake]

The cleaner the manuscript, the less the editor is going to need to do, thus saving money. It's entirely up to the writer how much they want to do before consulting an editor. A lot will depend on what type of editing they're paying for.

This. Plus, I don't want my editor wasting her time fixing minor issues that I could have fixed myself. I want my editor focusing on big picture stuff and taking my prose to the next level. But it's true that it does depend a lot on what type of an editor you're paying for.

[Maggie Ann]

Reading it out loud is an excellent idea. I know one author who uploaded his doc to the Kindle and turned on TTS so he could hear it. I think you pick up a lot more that way. Can that be done on the newer Kindles?

Word will do this for you, you can pick from three different voices, as far as I know.  It's pretty robotic, but helpful.  I haven't been able to force myself to listen to more than a chapter here of there though.

Thanks. I'd forgotten about that.

You could probably do it on a Kindle. I like to read it myself because it forces me to actually pay attention to each word. I must admit I find it easy to kind of zone out otherwise. And since I do it one day's work at a time, it's not too hard.

Definitely. The problem with just reading is that the eye sees what it expects to see, not what's actually there. You've just changed my way of editing.

[Simon Haynes]

I have yet another free program for Windows called yRead3, which will read aloud to you. Just paste the content in and hit play.

[Simon Haynes]

When I'm editing, I change the page width to avoid seeing the same structure for a second or third time. If I have doubled-up words (the the) split over two lines, that can help to find them.

[TimothyEllis]

When I'm editing, I change the page width to avoid seeing the same structure for a second or third time. If I have doubled-up words (the the) split over two lines, that can help to find them.

I move it to my kindle and not only see a different width, but in a different font.

[angela]

I have yet another free program for Windows called yRead3, which will read aloud to you. Just paste the content in and hit play.

Simon, I use yWriter for all my projects and love it, including the built-in text-to-speech. :-)

My husband's a new writer and is on yWriter as well.

re: self-editing -- I may be doing less good per hour on later drafts, but I track my time meticulously (using ManicTime) and I can easily put in more hours in a day on a manuscript as it becomes cleaner. For example, when outlining, I max out around 1-2 hours per day. First drafts I aim for 2-3 hours of focused work. But if I'm doing a final pass (like a third or fourth draft), I can happily work for 7 hours in a day and not feel burned out.

Sometimes that final "polish" draft is the most pleasurable one, where we get to admire the things that we like / that are working. It's the Satisfaction Draft for those of us who are into the details.*

*Being happy with your work does not pay off in the short term with earnings, but it does pay off in the long term when you enjoy the work and can keep going.

[Bill Hiatt]

The cleaner the manuscript, the less the editor is going to need to do, thus saving money. It's entirely up to the writer how much they want to do before consulting an editor. A lot will depend on what type of editing they're paying for.

This. Plus, I don't want my editor wasting her time fixing minor issues that I could have fixed myself. I want my editor focusing on big picture stuff and taking my prose to the next level. But it's true that it does depend a lot on what type of an editor you're paying for.

I've never worked as an editor, but my experience handling student essays as an English teacher supports that idea. Glaring errors tend to catch my eye more, sometimes making the subtler issues (the ones a student wouldn't catch on his or her own) harder to spot. Even if I was going to look rough drafts for students, I always told them to try to correct the issues they could correct before passing it on. That would let me focus on my energies on helping them fix the things they wouldn't see on their own.

That said, I understand what the Bass Bagwhan is getting at. There is a point at which extra editing time may produce diminishing returns for a writer. I don't try to make everything perfect for an editor, but I do try to clear up the problems that really stick out to me. There is a happy medium between throwing slop at an editor that looks as if the writer could have done far better and spending hours deciding a particular comma-placement issue.

[elleoco]

Maybe I am like a fanatical housekeeper who then hires a cleaner to clean. I cannot stand to knowingly leave errors in my work. I always re-read my previous day's work (aloud) and make changes and corrections before I go on to do more writing. At this point, I'm highly unlikely to change. I think it may depend on the author's writing process and personality.

This is the truth of the matter. No economic or other argument will sway some of us. It's a compulsion. I can remember my grandmother madly cleaning house the day before the house cleaner was coming. "Do you want her to think we're slobs?" And the house wasn't even really messy.

As to methods of self-editing, that's individual too. For instance, I tried to have my Kindle read a story to me. N.G. I dislike being read to and my attention wanders in nothing flat. However, reading out loud myself is one of the steps I go through and is helpful, as is reading backward paragraph by paragraph.

[Maggie Ann]

Maybe I am like a fanatical housekeeper who then hires a cleaner to clean. I cannot stand to knowingly leave errors in my work. I always re-read my previous day's work (aloud) and make changes and corrections before I go on to do more writing. At this point, I'm highly unlikely to change. I think it may depend on the author's writing process and personality.

This is the truth of the matter. No economic or other argument will sway some of us. It's a compulsion. I can remember my grandmother madly cleaning house the day before the house cleaner was coming. "Do you want her to think we're slobs?" And the house wasn't even really messy.

As to methods of self-editing, that's individual too. For instance, I tried to have my Kindle read a story to me. N.G. I dislike being read to and my attention wanders in nothing flat. However, reading out loud myself is one of the steps I go through and is helpful, as is reading backward paragraph by paragraph.

A newspaper proofer once told me that she read every sentence backwards. That might work in a short newspaper article, but I think would be difficult for a full length novel. Still, the principal is the same and would be a lot less awkward a paragraph at a time.

[elleoco]

A newspaper proofer once told me that she read every sentence backwards. That might work in a short newspaper article, but I think would be difficult for a full length novel. Still, the principal is the same and would be a lot less awkward a paragraph at a time.

What it helps you to do is stop getting involved in your wonderful story [again] and concentrate on what you're actually looking for, whether that's proofing type things or line editing type things.

[The Bass Bagwhan]

For those who have a relatively strict regime in self-editing, regardless of your method, a professional editor is someone looking for things that slip between the cracks and, to be realistic, it's often arguable whether our contribution is a viable or economical choice. Sometimes you can be editing a manuscript and thinking, "Wow, you just needed a proofreader" (or something along those lines) and then you discover a BIG plot hole or issue that makes your editing all worthwhile.
But I was referring mostly to writers whose strengths lie in storytelling and premise, but their technical prowess in writing keeps breaking rules — and often they introduce new errors in their attempts to fix perceived problems in the existing MS.
I'm suggesting that many writers who can't, or don't, self-edit in detail shouldn't stress too much about the nitty-gritty of their manuscript when their intention all along is to commission a good editor. We don't charge by "the misplaced comma".
I'm currently at the bottom of the world where the internet is powered by hamster wheels, so apologies if I don't reply to my own thread too much.

[LilyBLily]

The hardest thing to learn is our own weaknesses. You pay a pro to find what you yourself are blind to. If you think your ms. needs a cleanup before you send it to your editor, you're probably right. Clean it up as much as you can. The editor will find more stuff you never even noticed. This could be grammar, spelling, or plot holes depending on what kind of edit you're buying.

[Vijaya]

The hardest thing to learn is our own weaknesses. You pay a pro to find what you yourself are blind to. If you think your ms. needs a cleanup before you send it to your editor, you're probably right. Clean it up as much as you can. The editor will find more stuff you never even noticed. This could be grammar, spelling, or plot holes depending on what kind of edit you're buying.

This.

I bow to the Bass for stating a truth. I've had wonderful editors who've made my stories stronger.

[JRTomlin]

When I'm editing, I change the page width to avoid seeing the same structure for a second or third time. If I have doubled-up words (the the) split over two lines, that can help to find them.

I move it to my kindle and not only see a different width, but in a different font.

I prefer to edit from my word doc so I don't have to spend time looking for the error. It is pretty easy to select the whole document and change the font and font size which I do on my final edit.

I am not saying that you don't need an editor, just that I prefer to do my own edit before an editor sees it. Of course, writing HF, I also look for errors and needed changes that I can't expect even the best editor to see of the 'Oh, no! I did not mean the Earl of Atholl, I meant the Earl of Erroll' sort.

[Royal Editorial (Katie)]

Good thread! My two cents...

If you want a copy edit, then catching what you can will save you $$$ in the form of the editor's time. But there's definitely a point where it becomes worth it to pay the extra $100 to save yourself twenty hours of time...everyone will have their own threshold for this.

BUT! If what you want is a structural edit, don't bother fixing sentence-level stuff at all. The true time-waster is the author who fixes up their prose before the structure is set. I've definitely fallen into this trap. Don't be like me.