Need some help with military strategy

[JRTomlin]

I have done quite a lot of research on military strategy, particularly medieval, but this situation has me baffled, so if someone could help, I'd sure appreciate it.

I am a military commander of a horse troop & have to pass through a narrow valley bordered by cliffs on both sides that looks like it might be suspectable to ambush. I MUST pass through.

How do I handle such a situation? And what to do when I am attacked from on the cliffs? (I in effect lose this skirmish, probably not losing a great many men, but I'd rather the commander did not look like a total idiot in handling it)

ETA: I will probably end up having him send through an advance party. That has some problems though since the ambushers probably should realise it is an advance party. And it is emotionally unappealing to have a commander sacrifice the advance party. But sometimes it is what it is.

[notthatamanda]

Not sure if you still want suggestions after your edit but here goes:

Sacrifice as many as you have to to get through the pass? 
Sneak them through at night, leading the horses on foot as quietly as possible?
Stage an attack a couple of miles away as a distraction?
Leak false information about an attack elsewhere to draw them off?

[LilyBLily]

How does one get to the cliffs? I'd send an advance group to scale them and take out the ambush party. One for each cliff. Maybe have another advance group do a feint at the path level to draw attention away from an attack from behind.

What is your commander's goal here? To get someone, anyone, through, or to get a lot of people through?
Is the path so narrow that it can be defended by a handful of men?
Does your commander know anything about the path sight lines? For instance, if his men can get to Point X, will they be safe?
What weapons does the enemy have? Guns, spears, arrows--again, sight lines play a big role here.
Or is the enemy likely to just roll boulders down on the path and block it and obliterate his men? Or to roll them in advance--since horses are unlikely to be able to get through then.
What about moving at night? Dangers involved or would they be invisible to potential attackers if they covered their shields and harnesses with cloth? Is it a moonless night?

[JRTomlin]

Thanks for the suggestions.

Because of the situation, most of those aren't possible. They are deep in the wilderness of southwestern Scotland. Scotland has some wild areas, but that is one of the wildest even today. I particularly like the name of one of the ranges called the Range of the Awful Hand. Not very high but quite bleak. There is no one to leak anything to or anyone to attack except the enemy they are seeking.

The chance of sneaking through over rocky ground hundreds of horses and men in armor is pretty slim. I don't think he would try.

Their objective is to find the enemy. They just don't want to be attacked in an ambush. Well, they are anyway so... I am trying to make the leader lose without looking like an idiot. lol

[JRTomlin]

How does one get to the cliffs? I'd send an advance group to scale them and take out the ambush party. One for each cliff. Maybe have another advance group do a feint at the path level to draw attention away from an attack from behind.

What is your commander's goal here? To get someone, anyone, through, or to get a lot of people through?
Is the path so narrow that it can be defended by a handful of men?
Does your commander know anything about the path sight lines? For instance, if his men can get to Point X, will they be safe?
What weapons does the enemy have? Guns, spears, arrows--again, sight lines play a big role here.
Or is the enemy likely to just roll boulders down on the path and block it and obliterate his men? Or to roll them in advance--since horses are unlikely to be able to get through then.
What about moving at night? Dangers involved or would they be invisible to potential attackers if they covered their shields and harnesses with cloth? Is it a moonless night?

1307. No guns. Their objective is to find, engage and destroy the enemy without getting ambushed while doing it. He is going to try to get about a thousand men through.

But they do not KNOW that attackers are there. They just think that if they were going to make an ambush, that is where they would do it. They are looking for their enemy, don't know where they are. The only way to get to the cliffs would be to pass through the valley. They are not accessible from the side where he is. And there is no way they could scale the cliffs (if English knights were given to such tactics) without being attacked from above.

What actually happens is that boulders are used mostly although some archers may have been used as well.

You just could not move that many men over rocky ground on horseback silently in order to sneak through. They would be heard a long way away and being ambushed at night in a narrow valley would be even worse since they couldn't see to escape. It is very narrow, two or three men can ride abreast depending on the spot, so it is a perfect place for an ambush.

He knows that but his command is to find the enemy so he has no choice but to go where he thinks the enemy is.

ETA: This is an actual battle (or more of a skirmish).

[Maggie Ann]

I think any good commander would have scouts riding ahead no matter what the conditions or the mission. If the scouts don't come back or maybe only one might escape the barrage of arrows or boulders, the commander could make a good guess that the enemy was lying in wait.

[Lynn]

Sounds like he really has no choices. He has to make the sacrifice of a few for a lot, or he has to let them draw lots or something to let fate or God choose. The only thing he can't do is waffle too much or the men will wonder if he's a capable leader, right? He's going to have to send them through suspecting that someone is going to die, unless he's incompetent and truly believes that the enemy would not have taken advantage of the opportunity for an ambush, or he is terribly underestimating his enemy.

So really I think the only way he's going to look stupid is if he waffles too much, because he can't turn back.

[DrewMcGunn]

Depending on the size of your force, you'd send out scouts and also cover your flanks, as best as you're able.
While I can't speak to the pre-gunpowder era very much, scouting parties have been part of military tactics since before Ceasar.

While it is possible that the slope up from the pass may be too steep, but if not, it wouldn't have been unknown to send men dismounted on the flanks.

One possibility could be, if you don't want your commander to be thought of as a poor commander, they could be following hard on the heels of a retreating force (a decoy force), negating a scouting or flanking force and the decoys lead them into an ambush.

just my .02

[VanessaC]

Thanks for the suggestions.

Because of the situation, most of those aren't possible. They are deep in the wilderness of southwestern Scotland. Scotland has some wild areas, but that is one of the wildest even today. I particularly like the name of one of the ranges called the Range of the Awful Hand. Not very high but quite bleak. There is no one to leak anything to or anyone to attack except the enemy they are seeking.

The chance of sneaking through over rocky ground hundreds of horses and men in armor is pretty slim. I don't think he would try.

Their objective is to find the enemy. They just don't want to be attacked in an ambush. Well, they are anyway so... I am trying to make the leader lose without looking like an idiot. lol

My only suggestion was going to be a scouting party.

Also, just wanted to agree that Scotland has some fantastic place names - I love the Range of the Awful Hand! There's also a place called Rest and Be Thankful which is most of the way up the side of a steep valley somewhere in western Scotland, where I believe drovers used to pause - and rest - on their way up.

[JRTomlin]

Thnks for the suggestions.

[JRTomlin]

They too may have been the evilest sons of bitches but that was trumped by large bounders falling about 100 feet being even eviler. 😜

[Tom Wood]

Deploy the Kobayashi Maru!

[Hopscotch]

No good military commander in any age leads a column anywhere / under any conditions without  point and tail troops for early warning and flankers to detect and in sufficient strength to disrupt enemy ambush.  However his fight comes out, your guy has got to do that or he looks inept to any knowledgeable reader.

[JRTomlin]

They aren't charging because their enemy is not within sight. The enemy is hidden at the top of the cliff. You simply cannot use flankers when there is a 1500 foot high cliff on one side and a precipice above a loch on the other. There are definitely enough boulders to do serious damage to a large force because that is what happened. It really doesn't matter whether he thought that or not. (I doubt that he did)

It is a narrow path so they have to go single file, double at the most. The objective really is not to minimize casualties. It is to destroy or even better capture their enemy. They fail.

The point is that the leader was an experienced and successful commander and what happened is what happened. He lost. Writing so that it makes sense is my job.

(It is a rather well-known skirmish in Scottish history. I am just figuring out how to make the actions of the very experienced commander who loses make sense)

[notthatamanda]

(It is a rather well-known skirmish in Scottish history. I am just figuring out how to make the actions of the very experienced commander who loses make sense)

Ego?  He's got an underling, or colleague who challenges him and he refuses to back down cause that guy's been a pain in his butt for so long.
Bad intel?
Scouts are double agents and lie?

[JRTomlin]

No underling would challenge the Earl of Pembroke. If they did, he'd make short work of them. No double agents as it would not be credible. I am going to write (not an original explanation) that he was lured into a vulnerable position.  A sort of 'bird with a broken wing' strategy by the enemy. They don't attack the scouts and allow a party as a lure to be seen further ahead. After all, he was not on his home ground so he would not know that there were boulders at the top of Muldonnich. If you push boulders off and they fall that far, it's going to do some hellacious damage.

By the way, the idea that in the middle ages nobles never led at the head of their men is false. For example, at the Battle of Bannockburn a number of leaders of the English were killed in the first charge and the King of England had to be literally forced from the field after having been unhorsed. At the Battle of Methven King Robert the Bruce unhorsed the commander of the English, the same Earl of Pembroke (who won that time).

[Maggie Ann]

Deploy the Kobayashi Maru!

Unless Kirk has messed with the computer.

[Maggie Ann]

No underling would challenge the Earl of Pembroke. If they did, he'd make short work of them. No double agents as it would not be credible. I am going to write (not an original explanation) that he was lured into a vulnerable position.  A sort of 'bird with a broken wing' strategy by the enemy. They don't attack the scouts and allow a party as a lure to be seen further ahead. After all, he was not on his home ground so he would not know that there were boulders at the top of Muldonnich. If you push boulders off and they fall that far, it's going to do some hellacious damage.

By the way, the idea that in the middle ages nobles never led at the head of their men is false. For example, at the Battle of Bannockburn a number of leaders of the English were killed in the first charge and the King of England had to be literally forced from the field after having been unhorsed. At the Battle of Methven King Robert the Bruce unhorsed the commander of the English, the same Earl of Pembroke (who won that time).

Which Earl of Pembroke are you talking about? William Marshall was the first Earl, but his sons succeeded him one after the other. They all died without issue.

[JRTomlin]

The first and second creation of the title was to the de Clares and then to the Marshalls. In the third creation, the title went to the de Valence family. Aymer de Valence, 2nd earl of Pembroke, spent much of his life fighting in Scotland. It is a bit confusing to most of us that with each 'creation' of a title they restart the numbering of the title, hence there is more than one 1st Earl of Pembroke. 

[Maggie Ann]

The first and second creation of the title was to the de Clares and then to the Marshalls. In the third creation, the title went to the de Valence family. Aymer de Valence, 2nd earl of Pembroke, spent much of his life fighting in Scotland. It is a bit confusing to most of us that with each 'creation' of a title they restart the numbering of the title, hence there is more than on 1st Earl of Pembroke.

Interesting. thanks for clearing that up.

[TimothyEllis]

If this was a real battle, perhaps posting what is known about it would help. What were the known facts?

[JRTomlin]

Damn little is known about it except that one day in April of 1307 a sizable English force rode into a very narrow glen as they were searching for King Robert the Bruce, high cliffs on one side, precipice on the other, had boulders and rocks shoved down on them, probably some arrows as well although that is less clear. They took a major beating from that. It is less clear whether there was any hand to hand fighting at all although I would be a bit surprised if there wasn't an attack after the rock thing. Anyway, what was left retreated leaving dead men and horses behind.

It is a safe assumption that King Robert, with a much smaller force, had spotted the English and were waiting for them in a perfect place for an ambush.

I decided to have Pembroke send through a scouting party which reports that the glen is clear (they cannot reach or see the top of the cliff from where they are). They see a camp which was set up as a lure on the other side of the sizable loch that is below the precipice. You have to circle the loch to reach it. Pembroke still keeps a few scouts ahead but King Robert again ignores them and the English walk right into the trap.

You have to understand that details about skirmishes and reasons for decisions 700 years ago are sometimes a bit sketchy.

[TimothyEllis]

There is also the thing where you can do everything right, and still lose.

I decided to have Pembroke send through a scouting party which reports that the glen is clear (they cannot reach or see the top of the cliff from where they are). They see a camp which was set up as a lure on the other side of the sizable loch that is below the precipice. You have to circle the loch to reach it. Pembroke still keeps a few scouts ahead but they walk right into the trap.

And that is quite reasonable. He can be apprehensive about a trap (to himself), but the scouts find no evidence of one. And in fact, you could use this as way of having a commander debate with himself between established practice of scouting, and being too hesitant to seize the day, or being paranoid about something from his past. In the end he decides to go ahead, and pays the price. But you demonstrate at the same time he had no way of knowing it was a bad move, and so was simply something which happens to military forces from time to time, because of the fog of war.

[Jeff Tanyard]

This is pure speculation on my part, but here it goes...

Pembroke's motivation for charging ahead can be inferred thusly: he already beat Bruce the year before at Methven.  To quote the Loudoun Hill Wiki, "Bruce and Valence had first met in combat the previous year at the Battle of Methven just outside Perth, where Bruce's lack of preparedness, and his somewhat conventional military tactics, had brought him to the edge of disaster. His army virtually disintegrated under Valence's rapid onslaught, with many of Bruce's leading supporters falling captive." 

If hitting fast and hard works once, it'll work again, right?  Perhaps that was what Pembroke was thinking.  He figured that if any trouble presented itself, he could just order a charge, and the enemy would break just like at Methven.  Pembroke didn't expect Bruce and his men to have learned any lessons from the prior battle.  To his misfortune, they did.

There's an old saying about how generals always prepare to fight the last war, not the next one.  I'd go with that here: Pembroke was fighting the prior battle, not the next one.

Not sure if that's any help or not, but there it is.

[JRTomlin]

I take it you are looking at a different Wikipedia article than this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Methven

Ah, you were looking at the Loudon Hill one. I will check that for accuracy. Thanks for the reminder.

[j tanner]

I think you have it covered if the risk-reward you discussed here basically makes it into the prose.

- scouts made it through and back without being ambushed.
- scouts confirm there's no way to get to the top of the cliffs anywhere close and can't verify it's safe.
- scouts discovered evidence they're closing in on their target. (even if it's bait for the trap)
- Alternative routes aren't near.
- The time to crush the enemy is now while they're (theoretically) on the run. Any detour would mean losing them.

Yes, there's a chance of ambush, but the risk is worth the potential reward. If the commander is prone to overconfidence or a thirst for revenge either of those could play into the assessment as well.

Tactically, the only thing I think they might consider is sending smaller teams across with gaps between. You risk splitting your forces if/when an ambush occurs, but fewer troops are vulnerable to it at any one time.

[Dormouse]

The best strategy depends on the length of the narrow valley. In the Alps, Hannibal just had to endure.

Here, I assume it is shorter and that there is another side. The number of boulders available to drop is likely to have been limited, even if the ambusher has time to prepare. Assuming that the ambushing force is outnumbered by the chasing group, then their best strategy is likely to be to let a proportion of the attackers through and then rain down the boulders to stop reinforcements. Then crush the force that got through.

The attacker is likely to be perfectly aware of the risks unless they have been misled, and even then the risks are too obvious. Their best strategy is likely to be to send an advance party first to dig in (at the time, that would presumably be spear and bow men with stakes to deter horses). The commander staying in the rear until the advance guard has secured the other end of the valley. But that is still not sufficient to prevent the boulders and the advance guard being overwhelmed by superior numbers.
But once the boulders are used the way would be clear, if the men have the heart to go again.

It was always the case that heavy armour was a disadvantage except on level solid ground.

[JRTomlin]

Obviously, the rocks and boulders were not too 'limited' since that is what they used. Sometimes in historical fiction, we are limited by what happened rather than what we think should have happened. 😜

They were dropped from about 700 meters above the path, so they were quite capable of doing tremendous damage especially since they would have bounced and rolled on a path with no room to get out of the way.

[Lorri Moulton]

"Valence sent a raiding party ahead, of unknown size, perhaps hoping to catch the enemy off-guard in much the same fashion as at Methven. This time, however, King Robert made effective use of the terrain. King Robert sent some of his men up the slope with orders to loosen with levers and crow-bars as many of the detached blocks of granite as they could.[2]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Glen_Trool

And here's a link to the endnote.
https://books.google.com/books?id=bABQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA11&lpg=RA1-PA11&dq=Steps+of+Trool&source=bl&ots=_LqtNClJ6r&sig=SfwoD8CBX5wggtD14fgNIvpUIt8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEcQ6AEwC2oVChMIovrkmsblxgIVg3E-Ch0UFQq2#v=onepage&q=Steps%20of%20Trool&f=false