Frickin' Amazon and The Buy Box

[123mlh]

So as I understand it I can't compete for the buy box as an author but third-party sellers who don't even own my book can. Which is why one of my well-selling paperbacks is now showing as priced a good three dollars more than it should be because one of those third-party sellers has "won the buy box" and is the dominant price listed for my book. So great. Amazon is now going to overcharge my customers for my books. Or worse, people will just buy a similar but different book instead because of the price difference. Seriously, Amazon sucks.

(And, yes, I know most people here don't sell well in print but I do so this could be a big impact on my bottom line and will be for any other authors in a similar situation. I accept that third-parties can sell my book. That's fine. But they should not be allowed to be the dominant price when they price above my retail price. That is a poor customer experience as well as just begging for shady characters to manipulate it to their advantage.)

[Bill Hiatt]

I've always been skeptical of that part of the system also.

The really odd part is that one of the criteria for the buy box is lower price. As for the seller metrics that also play a role, if one's paperbacks come from KDP Print, you'd think it always win criteria like availability. Is Amazon saying that a third-party seller is more efficient at delivering books printed by Amazon than Amazon is? That's hard to believe, since the third party has introduced another stage into the process. In theory, Amazon should also favor its own quality control over that of a third party.

Is it just me, or is this system not even in Amazon's best interest? It seems as if Amazon should only use the winning-the-buy-box system in cases in which third parties compete only against each other. When they compete against the author for book sales, the author should always win.

[notthatamanda]

Can I ask what you mean by the "buy box"?
On my book page, there is a box with the kindle price and a box with the hardcover price.  Is that what you mean?
Under the hardcover price, there is 3 new, if you click on that there is Amazon, plus two other sellers.
One is shipping from the UK which is interesting, cause Ingram is printing it, which I assume means it's printed in the US.
I can't imagine why anyone would look at all three prices and pick either of the two higher ones, unless they have some sort of membership
with the other sellers, and get points or something. 
Side note - the third party seller who seemed kind of scammy and was selling my book used a week ago is gone.
Just puzzling out what all of this means.

[Arches]

Is it just me, or is this system not even in Amazon's best interest? It seems as if Amazon should only use the winning-the-buy-box system in cases in which third parties compete only against each other. When they compete against the author for book sales, the author should always win.

Trust me, everything Amazon does is in its best interest, at least as it perceives its interests. Forcing suppliers to compete on price is built into the system because Amazon perceives that customers mostly care about the price. We're just another group of suppliers who happen to rely on Amazon for fulfillment. In theory, that should produce the lowest price for a new book, but Amazon is stuck in the mindset of paper books being sold on remainder. If others can find a way to sell for less, Amazon is happy.

[123mlh]

Can I ask what you mean by the "buy box"?
On my book page, there is a box with the kindle price and a box with the hardcover price.  Is that what you mean?
Under the hardcover price, there is 3 new, if you click on that there is Amazon, plus two other sellers.
One is shipping from the UK which is interesting, cause Ingram is printing it, which I assume means it's printed in the US.
I can't imagine why anyone would look at all three prices and pick either of the two higher ones, unless they have some sort of membership
with the other sellers, and get points or something. 
Side note - the third party seller who seemed kind of scammy and was selling my book used a week ago is gone.
Just puzzling out what all of this means.

What I was seeing on the book's page was the ebook, paperback, and hard cover pricing boxes and the paperback and hard cover prices were both higher by about $4 from what I'd set them at. The only way to see my original pricing was to click on that "3 new from $X" link underneath each box which I as a consumer tend to avoid because I always figure those are some reseller and that the book isn't guaranteed to be as good a quality or to even ship sometimes. I would assume if I were buying a product that the publisher had set the prices I was seeing right there on the main book page but that's not the truth. (And another reason beyond the counterfeit products I accidentally bought there that I as a consumer will no longer shop there unless I have no other choice.)

[notthatamanda]

Okay, thanks, we are looking at the same thing.  I'll keep an eye on mine to see if the higher prices end up getting top bidding.  I'm wondering what the Algos are using for the top spot.  I offer 35% off to wholesalers.  The other two vendors on Amazon offering my book, on my page, would have to buy it from somewhere, and I don't think they are wholesaler, but I'm not sure how to tell.  My best guess is that Amazon would make the most money if the reader bought my book from them.

Of the other two vendors offering my book, one of them I'm convinced is a scam sight, half a million reviews, all the one star ones say the item never arrived. 

[TimothyEllis]

Image please.

[notthatamanda]

Who are you asking and what do you want an image of exactly?

[TimothyEllis]

Who are you asking and what do you want an image of exactly?

123mlh.

I have no idea what this buy box is being talked about. I need to see it.

[notthatamanda]

I didn't see that you had paperbacks, so I tried one of Simon's, hope he doesn't mind.

https://www.amazon.com.au/Peace-Force-Book-Harriet-Walsh-ebook/dp/B07BGJKYRW/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=simon+haynes&qid=1571188697&sr=8-1

I'm taking the buy box to mean where it says Paperback $21.31 and then under it 4 new from $21.31. 
If you click on the "4 new" you get four other prices for options and I took it to mean 123mlh was saying one of those other prices was in the box on the book page.   123mlh will have to confirm.  When you are on the paperback page I think whatever price is highest is the default unless the user changes it.

123mlh - what do you use for your print books, if you don't mind me asking?

[123mlh]

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. In my case that front page paperback price was a higher one than the price I've set on my paperbacks. I tried going back to the same book's page later in the day and it was back to showing my retail prices maybe because I complained or maybe because no one seller dominates the buy box all the time. They have a link to the criteria for competing for the buy box in KDP help but it goes to a Seller Central log in.

The book that was having the issue was published in paperback through KDP Print but also has a more recent IngramSpark version under a different ISBN that's linked to that page and hidden as another buying option. The hard cover is just IngramSpark.

[idontknowyet]

Wouldn't amazon actually prefer you to buy it from a drop shipper. Then they get paid 2x for one book. Once from the drop ship company. Then once by the customer.

[Simon Haynes]

My product pages used to show prices from a drop-shipper from time to time, but only when the Createspace version wasn't available to order. (Used to happen when you uploaded changes, which thankfully isn't a thing with KDP print.)

OP, is your KDP edition of the paperback showing as  "In Stock. Ships from and sold by Amazon.com."?

(When I check the link to my book someone shared above, it's showing a drop-shipper as the only option, since KDP print doesn't ship to customers in Australia. The US/UK/etc pages all show KDP print and my own copy of the paperback as the default choice.)

[123mlh]

It's now back to showing the old prices so no way to tell if it was out of stock when it was showing the higher prices. Also the other buy options no longer show a higher price than mine. So maybe my email to Amazon fixed it, although the only response I received from Amazon about the issue was informing me that if I wanted to have the hard cover price changed I'd need to reach out to my trade publisher and they'd have to change it through Vendor Central. Sometimes I worry a great deal that the majority of my income is driven by such an inept company...

[Bill Hiatt]

Is it just me, or is this system not even in Amazon's best interest? It seems as if Amazon should only use the winning-the-buy-box system in cases in which third parties compete only against each other. When they compete against the author for book sales, the author should always win.

Trust me, everything Amazon does is in its best interest, at least as it perceives its interests. Forcing suppliers to compete on price is built into the system because Amazon perceives that customers mostly care about the price. We're just another group of suppliers who happen to rely on Amazon for fulfillment. In theory, that should produce the lowest price for a new book, but Amazon is stuck in the mindset of paper books being sold on remainder. If others can find a way to sell for less, Amazon is happy.

We agree on what Amazon's motive is, but sometimes they pursue it very unintelligently. Even though price is one criterion for winning the buy box, there have been numerous reports of higher-priced, third-party books winning the buy box away from authors, whose price, if you think about it, is almost always going to have to be lower than what a third party could legitimately charge. Availability is also a criterion, and on that the author should always win as well, since one of the virtues of working with KDP Print is that the book is always listed as in stock.

Because of that, the buy box on paperback books should always belong to the author, at least if that person is using KDP Print. As 123mlh, the current practice could result in lost sales as buyers stare at the inflated price and go somewhere else. Maybe they don't buy anything at that point, and Amazon loses money. Maybe they do buy, realize they've been cheated (by a higher price, inflated shipping, or both) and blame Amazon--which, if Amazon is awarding the buy box to a higher-priced item, is exactly who they should blame.

We both agree that Amazon's thinking is sometimes incorrect. I wish that it would catch up with actual reality at some point.

[Arches]

Is it just me, or is this system not even in Amazon's best interest? It seems as if Amazon should only use the winning-the-buy-box system in cases in which third parties compete only against each other. When they compete against the author for book sales, the author should always win.

Trust me, everything Amazon does is in its best interest, at least as it perceives its interests. Forcing suppliers to compete on price is built into the system because Amazon perceives that customers mostly care about the price. We're just another group of suppliers who happen to rely on Amazon for fulfillment. In theory, that should produce the lowest price for a new book, but Amazon is stuck in the mindset of paper books being sold on remainder. If others can find a way to sell for less, Amazon is happy.

We agree on what Amazon's motive is, but sometimes they pursue it very unintelligently. Even though price is one criterion for winning the buy box, there have been numerous reports of higher-priced, third-party books winning the buy box away from authors, whose price, if you think about it, is almost always going to have to be lower than what a third party could legitimately charge. Availability is also a criterion, and on that the author should always win as well, since one of the virtues of working with KDP Print is that the book is always listed as in stock.

Because of that, the buy box on paperback books should always belong to the author, at least if that person is using KDP Print. As 123mlh, the current practice could result in lost sales as buyers stare at the inflated price and go somewhere else. Maybe they don't buy anything at that point, and Amazon loses money. Maybe they do buy, realize they've been cheated (by a higher price, inflated shipping, or both) and blame Amazon--which, if Amazon is awarding the buy box to a higher-priced item, is exactly who they should blame.

We both agree that Amazon's thinking is sometimes incorrect. I wish that it would catch up with actual reality at some point.

More and more, I get the impression that the publishing part of Amazon is in set-and-forget mode. The system was obviously set up to survive mostly on autopilot, and maybe that's essential given the low profit margins on most books and the huge number of authors selling books. I haven't seen any authoritative numbers, but with thirty million of books for sale or so, that means there are probably tens of thousands of authors, if not more. So, most of the system is coasting along as it was set up years ago.

Further, the retail books system is very complex, and I'm sure anyone who wants to mess with any part of it gets considerable resistance from management about changing anything because of unintended consequences.

And, unfortunately, it doesn't seem that KDP is being run by Amazon's "A" team. Books just aren't that profitable compared to most other parts of the giant company. So, when KDP staff suggests going against the grain on how they handle the buy button and suggest it doesn't make sense to take it away from an author when KDP is fulfilling paper books, the management is probably particularly reluctant to mess with the current system. Just a guess.

[Tom Wood]

Amazon also migrated away from Oracle toward its own database systems, while increasing its reliance on artificial intelligence.

Flunky: Mr. Bezos?

Bezos: What is it?

F: It's the new AI.

B: What about it?

F: It's here.

B: What does it want?

F: It wants to turn you into a paperclip.

B: Damn you Ellison, I'll see you in hell!

[Bill Hiatt]

Is it just me, or is this system not even in Amazon's best interest? It seems as if Amazon should only use the winning-the-buy-box system in cases in which third parties compete only against each other. When they compete against the author for book sales, the author should always win.

Trust me, everything Amazon does is in its best interest, at least as it perceives its interests. Forcing suppliers to compete on price is built into the system because Amazon perceives that customers mostly care about the price. We're just another group of suppliers who happen to rely on Amazon for fulfillment. In theory, that should produce the lowest price for a new book, but Amazon is stuck in the mindset of paper books being sold on remainder. If others can find a way to sell for less, Amazon is happy.

We agree on what Amazon's motive is, but sometimes they pursue it very unintelligently. Even though price is one criterion for winning the buy box, there have been numerous reports of higher-priced, third-party books winning the buy box away from authors, whose price, if you think about it, is almost always going to have to be lower than what a third party could legitimately charge. Availability is also a criterion, and on that the author should always win as well, since one of the virtues of working with KDP Print is that the book is always listed as in stock.

Because of that, the buy box on paperback books should always belong to the author, at least if that person is using KDP Print. As 123mlh, the current practice could result in lost sales as buyers stare at the inflated price and go somewhere else. Maybe they don't buy anything at that point, and Amazon loses money. Maybe they do buy, realize they've been cheated (by a higher price, inflated shipping, or both) and blame Amazon--which, if Amazon is awarding the buy box to a higher-priced item, is exactly who they should blame.

We both agree that Amazon's thinking is sometimes incorrect. I wish that it would catch up with actual reality at some point.

More and more, I get the impression that the publishing part of Amazon is in set-and-forget mode. The system was obviously set up to survive mostly on autopilot, and maybe that's essential given the low profit margins on most books and the huge number of authors selling books. I haven't seen any authoritative numbers, but with thirty million of books for sale or so, that means there are probably tens of thousands of authors, if not more. So, most of the system is coasting along as it was set up years ago.

Further, the retail books system is very complex, and I'm sure anyone who wants to mess with any part of it gets considerable resistance from management about changing anything because of unintended consequences.

And, unfortunately, it doesn't seem that KDP is being run by Amazon's "A" team. Books just aren't that profitable compared to most other parts of the giant company. So, when KDP staff suggests going against the grain on how they handle the buy button and suggest it doesn't make sense to take it away from an author when KDP is fulfilling paper books, the management is probably particularly reluctant to mess with the current system. Just a guess.

Yeah, that's the problem--autopilot reinforced by inertia.

[TimothyEllis]

Yeah, that's the problem--autopilot reinforced by inertia.

Or as we in the X universe say....

The Autopillok.

 

[Anarchist]

The book that was having the issue was published in paperback through KDP Print but also has a more recent IngramSpark version under a different ISBN that's linked to that page and hidden as another buying option. The hard cover is just IngramSpark.

I sell a fair number of print books via KDP Print. Every time I consider moving to IngramSpark, I read about issues. It scares me right back into KDP Print's arms.

[notthatamanda]

The book that was having the issue was published in paperback through KDP Print but also has a more recent IngramSpark version under a different ISBN that's linked to that page and hidden as another buying option. The hard cover is just IngramSpark.

I sell a fair number of print books via KDP Print. Every time I consider moving to IngramSpark, I read about issues. It scares me right back into KDP Print's arms.

Can I kill future availability of a book I did on createspace that is now showing as available?  I'm moving everything to Ingram.  I know the createspace edition will always be there, but can I stop it from making new ones?  That file hasn't been updated and I'm not planning on doing it.