Author Topic: Let's Chat --- Editors  (Read 8890 times)

idontknowyet

Let's Chat --- Editors
« on: November 01, 2019, 03:05:44 AM »
Authors
What do you look for in editors?
Are you ever afraid an editor will change your voice/story?
How do you respond when an editor hates your voice/story?
Does an editor's education matter?
What about experience?

What is your pet peeve when it comes to editors?


If you're and editor, feel free to chime in.
What do authors do that drives you nuts?
What can authors do to make your job easier?
Do you read the genres you edit?

What is your pet peeve when it comes to authors?
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2019, 03:54:53 AM »
I value experience in an editor, and that's usually how they advertise. I've seldom seen one mention educational credentials, though I'm pretty sure they all have college educations.

I'm not afraid an editor will change my voice or story, because ultimately, I'm the one in charge. If the editor suggests a change I don't think will work, I just don't make it.

I've worked successfully even with an editor whose philosophy of writing was far different from mine. That said, in general, I'd advise people to find an editor who at least partially shares their vision. (Most editors won't announce that they hate your stuff. Tough criticism may not be inspired by hatred.


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Simon Haynes

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2019, 04:12:46 AM »
The only editor I've worked with was great.  She didn't make plot suggestions and so on, she just highlighted the areas she felt were problematic, and left the solution up to me.

She was happy to discuss the solutions with me, once I had them, but I never felt like she was trying to write my novel or my plot outline.

(As you can tell, it was a structural edit.)

I've never worked with an editor on grammar, punctuation, or phrasing. (I stuck an Oxford comma in there just to keep 50% of the people reading this happy, hah! The rest of you can suffer with me.)

I'm happy with my style and rhythm, my word choices and so on, and I've never had complaints in that department. I'm no wordsmith, but I definitely wouldn't pay someone to rephrase my sentences.

 
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JRTomlin

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2019, 04:41:11 AM »
An editor cannot 'change your story'. Any change an editor suggests that an author dislikes the author can simply respond: STET. In the end, it is that author's name on the work and the author's decision when or whether to take advice.

Or in the case of an indie author, to take it or to ignore it.

I have had varying experiences with editors. Most have been great. One who worked on a novel that I sold to a publisher, I told the publisher that I would not work with. (She claimed that a woman could not use a bow because - breasts 🤦)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2019, 08:53:06 AM by JRTomlin »
 
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Simon Haynes

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2019, 04:49:36 AM »
(She claimed that a woman could not use a bow because - breasts 🤦)

Wow. I mean, I shot target archery for 20 years and most of the women on the shooting line wore a type of chest guard in case the string caught them, but 'could not use' is pretty extreme. Also, plus-sized men wore the same chest guards on the shooting line, and for the same reason. I guess she'd claim they couldn't defend the realm either.


ETA: shooting in Australia in summer, temps 45C/110F in the shade. Only a thin t-shirt worn.  Ignore the above if people are wearing 3 layers of clothing and a leather jerkin.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2019, 04:52:16 AM by Simon Haynes »
 
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idontknowyet

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2019, 06:15:37 AM »
I value experience in an editor, and that's usually how they advertise. I've seldom seen one mention educational credentials, though I'm pretty sure they all have college educations.

I'm not afraid an editor will change my voice or story, because ultimately, I'm the one in charge. If the editor suggests a change I don't think will work, I just don't make it.

I've worked successfully even with an editor whose philosophy of writing was far different from mine. That said, in general, I'd advise people to find an editor who at least partially shares their vision. (Most editors won't announce that they hate your stuff. Tough criticism may not be inspired by hatred.

I should hope they would be professional enough not to say they hate your work, but telling a person they need a full rewrite is a polite way of saying the same thing.

 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2019, 06:36:34 AM »
I value experience in an editor, and that's usually how they advertise. I've seldom seen one mention educational credentials, though I'm pretty sure they all have college educations.

I'm not afraid an editor will change my voice or story, because ultimately, I'm the one in charge. If the editor suggests a change I don't think will work, I just don't make it.

I've worked successfully even with an editor whose philosophy of writing was far different from mine. That said, in general, I'd advise people to find an editor who at least partially shares their vision. (Most editors won't announce that they hate your stuff. Tough criticism may not be inspired by hatred.

I should hope they would be professional enough not to say they hate your work, but telling a person they need a full rewrite is a polite way of saying the same thing.
It depends on what the full rewrite requires. Even if the editor is recommending lots of changes, there's still plenty of space between, "This work could be better," and "I hate it." I've suggested some pretty radical revisions to students without hating what they wrote originally, though what they wrote originally wasn't the best they could have done.


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elleoco

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2019, 07:51:50 AM »
Even if the editor is recommending lots of changes, there's still plenty of space between, "This work could be better," and "I hate it."

That's how I'd take it too. There's a lot of room between I hate it or even I dislike it and it needs rewriting. To me the disliking would mean the story, no matter how told, had no appeal or even repelled. Saying it needs rewriting would mean severe problems with the way the story was told. Then again, I suspect some freelance editors *****foot around when it's the author who is the customer more than they would if a publishing house was the customer.

idontknowyet

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2019, 08:04:26 AM »
You would rewrite an entire book that you like?

That doesn't make sense to me at all.
 

elleoco

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2019, 09:05:00 AM »
You would rewrite an entire book that you like?

That doesn't make sense to me at all.

I'm not sure who that's addressed to, but no, I wouldn't. But I've only once used an editor and didn't get that kind of advice, and I don't believe beta readers who like my kind of story in general would ever have that sort of reaction to one of my stories. Of course maybe next time.... I did once rewrite one whole section of a book (probably about 10%) based on beta feedback that would obviously (to me) make it stronger. And I did once heavily revise or rewrite every scene in a hero's POV (romance, dual POV between hero and heroine) because of beta feedback that his personality was too tough for most readers, which I already suspected. I've also totally ignored feedback when I didn't agree and generally won't change anything based on a single person's input unless it really strikes me as aha! that would make the story better.

idontknowyet

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2019, 10:39:31 AM »
You would rewrite an entire book that you like?

That doesn't make sense to me at all.

I'm not sure who that's addressed to, but no, I wouldn't. But I've only once used an editor and didn't get that kind of advice, and I don't believe beta readers who like my kind of story in general would ever have that sort of reaction to one of my stories. Of course maybe next time.... I did once rewrite one whole section of a book (probably about 10%) based on beta feedback that would obviously (to me) make it stronger. And I did once heavily revise or rewrite every scene in a hero's POV (romance, dual POV between hero and heroine) because of beta feedback that his personality was too tough for most readers, which I already suspected. I've also totally ignored feedback when I didn't agree and generally won't change anything based on a single person's input unless it really strikes me as aha! that would make the story better.
Not you specifically just the group in general. But glad you answered.

The topic of editors is usually only talked about in the context of should you or shouldn't you. I thought it would be interesting to talk about experiences good and bad. How they have worked? Likes and dislikes. Pros and cons in editing. This way when people choose editors they are better equipped. Or it helps to determine if they want to use them at all. I know there are several people here that don't.

We also have a few editors that are part of the forums. Getting their viewpoints would be insightful as well.
 

Jake

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2019, 07:25:29 PM »
There are a LOT of terrible editors out there advertising their services, people who have absolutely no business taking anyone's money and calling themselves a professional. The phrase "you get what you pay for" doesn't really apply when it comes to freelance editors, I've seen terrible editors in every price range.

What I look for in terms of an editor depends on whether I'm looking for a line editor, a copy editor, or a proofreader. But no matter what kind of edit I'm after I want an editor who is reliable, responds to emails in a timely fashion, and fits my writing style. If I'm writing fantasy I want an editor that likes and understands that genre and not one that mostly edits romance.

Are you ever afraid an editor will change your voice/story?

An editor can't change your voice or your story. If they're making too many suggestions that you don't like or agree with then you probably picked the wrong editor. I once had a social justice warrior editor that tried to give me an unwanted sensitivity edit, this was during the "sample edit" phase, I laughed and didn't hire that editor.

Does an editor's education matter?
What about experience?

Lots of editors list their education or what big 5 publishers they supposedly used to work for but I ignore that stuff. You usually can't verify it. Most authors don't list their editors in their books, if they do and their books are really good I'll check out the editor. Peer recommendations on forums like this are useful to. But in the end I base my hiring decision on the quality of the sample edit.

What is your pet peeve when it comes to editors?

Editors that claim to offer line editing but all they really do is copyediting.
 
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VanessaC

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2019, 09:01:18 PM »
When I first started out I was worried about editors changing my "voice", which I think is a natural new writer concern. Also, a lack of knowledge on my part about the different types of editing around.

Once you've worked out what kind of editing you need, in all cases, I would highly recommend getting a sample first before engaging the editor - and I'm sure the editors would prefer this, too. It lets you see the sorts of things they pick up, and if it doesn't feel like a comfortable fit, you can move on. Editing can be expensive, and it would be horrible to pay money across for something you couldn't use.

And, as with all feedback, it's a case of: accept it, adapt it, or reject it. You don't have to follow every suggestion the editor makes. For me, a key part of an editor's value is making me think - is this unclear? could I say this better?

     



Genre: Fantasy
 
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Vijaya

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2019, 11:01:08 PM »
I've been blessed with really, really good editors who ask the right questions, help me to clarify anything that's muddy, and catch things I miss. Their experience matters. I've only had one editor who rewrote a ms (not my voice) and we never worked together again.

I also beta read and edit but don't really advertise this service because that's not how I want to spend my time. Most of the time I send people away, give them some good recs, try to get them to have critique partners, but if they still want to work with me, and if my schedule allows, I'll take them on as a client.


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PJ Post

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2019, 12:36:35 AM »
The first thing I'd recommend for writers here is to lighten up...and try to be professional. If you take your car to a mechanic to get it repaired, you're probably going to respect their advice, even if you get a second opinion. If you're contracting with a professional editor, and you'd like any measure of success, you have to let them do their job. So listen to what they have to say and especially why they're suggesting it. This includes parts they may have rewritten. Just take what they've done, if you agree with the change, and redo it in your own voice. Editing is proof writers are artists, because they become wack-a-doodle control freaks when it comes to their work - I'm too accomplished for the green M&M's, only bring me the blue ones!

For an editor to be effective you have to have a respectful partnership. Also, to that end, make sure you've defined exactly what type of editing they're doing: line, copy, substantive or developmental.

I think editors need some professional (verifiable) track record.
I also think they should offer a sample edit.
And when they do, they should demonstrate an understanding of what the writer is trying to do, where they're trying to go and how they're going to get there.
If the above happens, you've probably got a good match.
If not...keep looking; for example, if they don't like the tense or the voice or the mood or setting or whatever. If they get the big picture - you'll get a better book at the end. If they don't - you'll end up with a mess.

And, like JR said, you're not compelled to take every suggestion, but you need to know exactly why you're rejecting it, apart from it being a green M&M.

 
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LilyBLily

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2019, 12:59:52 AM »
I don't think a track record means much of anything unless it is recent and specific to our part of the field. What is important is what we want from an editor. A sample should be mandatory, and authors seeking serious edits should get multiple samples on the same ms. piece at the same time and then compare. I've had people give me unbelievably wretched and unprofessional samples, and yet these people were praised and recommended by other authors, so a recommendation as such when it comes to editing is worthless without a sample.

My only exception is if the editor is offering such a cheap deal that I believe I can afford to throw away the fee. I would check that the editor has a recent set of indie recommendations as a track record, but beyond that I would not bother to research.

There are a few situations where it might be shrewd to hire a specific editor. Say you want to sell your ms. to a specific trad pub, and an editor who used to work for that company has hung out a shingle. That editor doubtless has internalized all the dos and don'ts of that publisher and can help you shape your story to be more likely to be accepted by them. It's still you against the odds, but it might help.

Otherwise, your best editor is going to be someone with a natural liking of the kind of story you write and with a developed understanding of what works and what doesn't, whether at the plot and characters level or the grammatical.
 
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PJ Post

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2019, 01:27:53 AM »
I don't think a track record means much of anything unless it is recent and specific to our part of the field.

To clarify: I didn't mean that they had to have won awards or worked with famous writers or anything. But if your book is their very first job, you need to know that. Generally speaking, an editor should be able to give you a short list of books they've worked on, and what - specifically - they did for it. In the business world this is known as references. And yes, I think they’re super important; and that goes for any business relationship.

 
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LilyBLily

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2019, 04:17:48 AM »
I don't think a track record means much of anything unless it is recent and specific to our part of the field.

To clarify: I didn't mean that they had to have won awards or worked with famous writers or anything. But if your book is their very first job, you need to know that. Generally speaking, an editor should be able to give you a short list of books they've worked on, and what - specifically - they did for it. In the business world this is known as references. And yes, I think they’re super important; and that goes for any business relationship.

There we have a problem. My client list is confidential; I don't share a list of titles I've edited. I will describe the types of books I've edited, but I do not name publishers or private clients. As a longtime freelancer I have never hustled; the work has come to me by word of mouth. Most hirees for employment are word-of-mouth hirees; they are not chosen by the items on their resumes. Indies in general have a very tenuous grasp of what editorial functions are, and their ability to understand a resume of publishing gigs may be even more limited. They should not depend on references. They should do multiple samples.   

When I am the client, I don't necessarily want to be used as an endorsement. I may not be totally satisfied with what the editor did, even if I was willing to pay for the service and call it done. Because I am an editor and therefore am opinionated about editing, that happens a lot. Some authors may be grateful when a proofreader rewrites their prose here and there; I am not--but that may make me an outlier these days.

   
 
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PJ Post

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2019, 04:26:56 AM »
If I'm going to spend possibly thousands of dollars on a project, I need some confidence that the vendor can deliver, beyond a few page sample edit. But I also get what you're saying. All of this becomes irrelevant if the editor has word of mouth referrals through next year.

As for sharing, I'm the opposite. I like to promote other creatives that work with me, be it books, music or design. I see it as paying it forward, a rising tide lifts all boats and that kind of thing. But I do understand the confidential thing as well.

 
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The Bass Bagwhan

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2019, 08:35:56 PM »
Okay, so I'm an editor and writer (and narrator, by the way), so I've got fingers in every pie here. Bear with me, if you're interested.

There are two kinds of editors - and I'm both.

One is an editor who is an integral part of the author's workflow. For example, I work with several writers who write and publish fast, and they ask me to polish and fine-tune their completed MS while they get on with the job of writing something new. It's not lazy or slapdash, it's simply that they recognise the point at which further editing on their part is less beneficial than starting new material. I'm going to fix it anyway, and there is a lot of faith and understanding in that kind of working relationship. Basically, I highlight the "big" problems for them to fix, and they generally accept my nuts-and-bolts editing without spending too much time checking them.

The other editor is someone who's asked to correct and improve a manuscript from an author who admits they don't know the finer points of writing, and the author is also hoping to perhaps learn, or improve, from that input.

Editors are never teachers, mentors or some kind of "judge" who needs to approve of your book. You work WITH an editor, and if you're ever apprehensive of their feedback or opinion, you're working with the wrong person.

The "kind" of editing provided is an endless debate. Yes, development editing is what it is, but other arguments comparing line, substantial, copy editing ... mean little because each individual editor approaches the role differently. The only thing you can do is ask any editor exactly what they'll do for a specific fee. Forget about any labelling. However, bear in mind that some editors will draw a line at the advice they'll give because you have to assume that process has been done. Meaning, if you're doing a proofread and some of the writing is terrible, it's sometimes prudent to assume the MS HAS been edited. The errors you're seeing have been identified, considered and approved by someone else. It's just not ethical to say, "Hey, did you catch this misplaced modifier?" and to risk for the author's response to be, "Bloody hell, I paid $2k for an editor any they missed it?"   

An editor should never change an author's voice - ever. But if they think the voice doesn't work, or is seriously flawed, that should be explained.

The only times I ever significantly rewrite any passage in an MS is when it's blatantly the best means to demonstrate the original problem. I could write 2000 words in a Track Changes Comment trying to explain, or rewrite and say, "It needs something like this..."

Editing a writer's voice, style, meter, tempo and content has nothing to do with content. That's your job. If you need an editor to decide what should and shouldn't suit your genre with regards to content and voice, you're not doing YOUR job. But yes, an editor familiar with terminology and conventions in some genres is necessary.

Pet peeves as an editor?

Excessive exposition ... authors who feel compelled to over-describe every day-to-day action in exhausting, repetitive detail as if they're concerned a reader will complain, "Hey, he can't be in the car! He didn't open the door! And what colour are his shoes?" Readers prefer to fill in the gaps in favour of fast, tight writing. They want to know who shot who, not the colour of the sniper's socks.

Sample edits - I've learned my lesson. People ask for samples and I provide in-depth, considered, time-consuming samples ... and they use it as a freebie how-to lesson on ways to fix their book.  Don't be surprised if an editor holds back a little, or is a bit unclear of the processes they're recommending, because too many authors ask for samples as a means to get free MS assessments.

By the way, around $110-$130 per 10K words is about right. People spending "thousands" either have large MS's or are being ripped off. But ultimately, you'll never really have an understanding of what it's like to work with any editor until you've done just that - work with them. Hopefully, you don't have a bad experience. Just don't accept "good enough" either.

That's my (Australian) two cents worth. 
 
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Simon Haynes

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2019, 08:47:43 PM »
They want to know who shot who, not the colour of the sniper's socks.

So you've never read Tom Clancy then? ;-)

Masses of backstory for a character on a coastguard ship, who then makes one quick radio call to advance the plot and is never mentioned again. Argh.

 
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The Bass Bagwhan

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2019, 09:36:14 PM »
They want to know who shot who, not the colour of the sniper's socks.

So you've never read Tom Clancy then? ;-)

Masses of backstory for a character on a coastguard ship, who then makes one quick radio call to advance the plot and is never mentioned again. Argh.

Ah... I loved "The Hunt for Red October" and then "Red Storm Rising". But the next TC book for me when into excrutiating detail on how to build a suitcase-sized nuclear bomb and drove me nuts. Mind you, I read "Lord of the Rings" twice, the first time enduring the elvish genealogical stuff assuming it has a purpose. The second time, whenever randy, shagging elves got a mention, I hit the literary paperback equivilant of "Fast Forward".   
 
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JRTomlin

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2019, 03:13:53 AM »
LilyBLily, I don't know if you're an outlier but if you are, I'm out there with you on that.
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2019, 03:26:41 AM »
They want to know who shot who, not the colour of the sniper's socks.

So you've never read Tom Clancy then? ;-)

Masses of backstory for a character on a coastguard ship, who then makes one quick radio call to advance the plot and is never mentioned again. Argh.

Ah... I loved "The Hunt for Red October" and then "Red Storm Rising". But the next TC book for me when into excrutiating detail on how to build a suitcase-sized nuclear bomb and drove me nuts. Mind you, I read "Lord of the Rings" twice, the first time enduring the elvish genealogical stuff assuming it has a purpose. The second time, whenever randy, shagging elves got a mention, I hit the literary paperback equivilant of "Fast Forward".
This is evidence of the (sometimes unconscious) influence of television on literature. Rewind a few decades, and most literature has much more description and a more leisurely pacing than contemporary novels. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I think the change was definitely driven by other media.

Think about the novels that describe every character and the setting in detail before much action happens. This kind of scene-setting used to be common. Now we follow the television pattern (a death or some other dramatic development before the first commercial, or, in our case, close to the beginning of the first chapter). That's just one example.

I agree that too much description can be frustrating, but I'll also note that readers have different expectations. Not so long ago, I was writing book 2 in one of my series, trying to include enough background early on for the people who might not have read the first book. My editor encouraged me to cut that back to the bare minimum. I had mixed feelings but went along. Several reviewers then complained it was hard to understand certain things (coincidentally, the very things for which the explanation had been cut down). Those readers might have been difficult to please, because series books, by their nature, can't be expected to stand completely alone. Not every reader seems to grasp that, and there's no easy fix.

As for randy, shagging elves, I don't remember those. It's been too long since I read Tolkien. But yes, he does get rather carried away in the background that may in some ways build the world but isn't always directly relevant. Today, his editor would certainly have suggested more cuts...


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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2019, 03:30:15 AM »
I don't think a track record means much of anything unless it is recent and specific to our part of the field.

To clarify: I didn't mean that they had to have won awards or worked with famous writers or anything. But if your book is their very first job, you need to know that. Generally speaking, an editor should be able to give you a short list of books they've worked on, and what - specifically - they did for it. In the business world this is known as references. And yes, I think they’re super important; and that goes for any business relationship.

There we have a problem. My client list is confidential; I don't share a list of titles I've edited. I will describe the types of books I've edited, but I do not name publishers or private clients. As a longtime freelancer I have never hustled; the work has come to me by word of mouth. Most hirees for employment are word-of-mouth hirees; they are not chosen by the items on their resumes. Indies in general have a very tenuous grasp of what editorial functions are, and their ability to understand a resume of publishing gigs may be even more limited. They should not depend on references. They should do multiple samples.   

When I am the client, I don't necessarily want to be used as an endorsement. I may not be totally satisfied with what the editor did, even if I was willing to pay for the service and call it done. Because I am an editor and therefore am opinionated about editing, that happens a lot. Some authors may be grateful when a proofreader rewrites their prose here and there; I am not--but that may make me an outlier these days.

 
You make good points about writers not wanting to be used as endorsements by editors. I can imagine the opposite happening as well. Would you want to advertise that you worked on a particular novel in which your client basically ignored your suggestions and produced a mess? Anyway, the quality of a particular author's work may or may not be a reflection on the editor. I have noticed that trad authors, while thanking an editor, often make sure to point out that any remaining errors are the author's. That formula isn't used as much by indies.


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Jake

Re: Let's Chat --- Editors
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2019, 04:10:06 AM »
Sample edits - I've learned my lesson. People ask for samples and I provide in-depth, considered, time-consuming samples ... and they use it as a freebie how-to lesson on ways to fix their book.  Don't be surprised if an editor holds back a little, or is a bit unclear of the processes they're recommending, because too many authors ask for samples as a means to get free MS assessments.

How do you know they're looking for a free manuscript assessment and haven't just sent the manuscript to 5-10 different editors and in the end decided to go with someone else?

I know it probably sucks putting so much time and effort into a sample edit for someone that ends up going elsewhere but that's why some editors limit the sample to only 2 or 3,000 words. If if were me and an editor held back during the sample then I would probably assume their work was shoddy and guarantee I went elsewhere.
 
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