Author Topic: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?  (Read 17935 times)

Gregg Bell

Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« on: March 27, 2025, 05:30:57 AM »
A while back in the forum here I mentioned that if you run a great launch promo, Amazon will take over and do "the heavy lifting." Someone replied: 'Amazon no longer does the heavy lifting.' Well, I was about to launch my promo and either didn't believe it or didn't want to believe it. Now I've run my promo and the results are dreadful. So--say it ain't so!--it's true that Amazon no longer does the heavy lifting?
 

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Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2025, 06:09:11 AM »
At the very least, it does less lifting than it used to.


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R. C.

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Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2025, 06:12:22 AM »
At the very least, it does less lifting than it used to.

Lifting less advertising money from pocket...

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Anarchist

Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2025, 09:52:34 AM »
Amazon will promote your book, particularly during the honeymoon phase.

But more than ever, it wants you to demonstrate why it should. That means high conversion rate and sales velocity.
"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: there is never enough of anything to fully satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics." - Thomas Sowell

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PJ Post

Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2025, 10:08:06 PM »
Yet another reason to adopt a branding strategy that gives the Creative control over their work. Relying on any single platform is unnecessarily risky, especially since we have so many options now.

 
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LilyBLily

Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2025, 10:26:30 PM »
I just received an email from Amazon touting the next book in a series by an author I follow. The interesting thing to me is that this book isn't out yet. This is a separate "Coming soon from an author you follow" email, and in fact Amazon has also shown this book to me in its other KU email, "Featured in Kindle Unlimited"--that I received yesterday. The book, which I had pre-ordered weeks ago, doesn't release until May 2.

So...I think Amazon is doing some very heavy lifting indeed for this author, who writes in a rather unusual subgenre, the genuinely "clean" humorous Regency romance.
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2025, 11:36:39 PM »
I just received an email from Amazon touting the next book in a series by an author I follow. The interesting thing to me is that this book isn't out yet. This is a separate "Coming soon from an author you follow" email, and in fact Amazon has also shown this book to me in its other KU email, "Featured in Kindle Unlimited"--that I received yesterday. The book, which I had pre-ordered weeks ago, doesn't release until May 2.

So...I think Amazon is doing some very heavy lifting indeed for this author, who writes in a rather unusual subgenre, the genuinely "clean" humorous Regency romance.

Actually, the bots can't tell time.

Anything new on pre-order gets tagged as 'New Release', even when the pre-order date is months away.

All the bot does is pick up the new release tag, and send that out as if it had been released already.

I get plenty of emails for authors I DON'T follow, and very few for those I do.

And they still send me emails for Romance books, and I've never bought one in my life.
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LilyBLily

Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2025, 04:50:26 AM »
But in this case, the Amazon email specifically said, "Coming soon from ____"

I don't believe the bots were confused about that email, even if they were confused about the one yesterday that was "Featured in Kindle Unlimited, recommended for you, and more" and apparently all the other books had already been released. (Now I'll have to track them all down and check.) No, the others were all already published, some for years, actually.

Two different kinds of emails. A good thing for authors who have followers.
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2025, 10:31:17 PM »
I have a surprisingly large number of followers, but Amazon never sends out emails related to my books.

I'm not breaking any sales records, but I'm certainly doing better than average, if only because of the long tail of authors who sell almost nothing.

I'm also spending more ad money than I should be (given the returns). Perhaps Amazon needs to tweak its algorithms so that it keeps follower emails flowing for those who feed the advertising beast and have a positive review history.


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TimothyEllis

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Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2025, 11:58:41 PM »
I have a surprisingly large number of followers, but Amazon never sends out emails related to my books.

Followers don't convert into sales. I'm guessing, but about 10% of mine buy/full read in the first week.

Maybe not emails, but Amazon is pushing notifications through the Kindle app. I get notifications for just about all the authors I've previously bought.
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LilyBLily

Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2025, 04:45:18 AM »
Anyway, I do think that sending repeated emails about a book is doing the heavy lifting.

The irony is that I placed a pre-order on this book the moment I finished the prior book in the series. I did not need any of these notifications.
 

Jeff Tanyard

Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2025, 06:44:23 AM »
I'm also spending more ad money than I should be (given the returns). Perhaps Amazon needs to tweak its algorithms so that it keeps follower emails flowing for those who feed the advertising beast and have a positive review history.


As long as Amazon's getting your money, they don't have an incentive to tweak anything.
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2025, 11:08:09 PM »
That is indeed true, but I can't help thinking that Amazon loses a lot of potential advertisers because the system just doesn't work well enough. So while they may be getting decent income from it, I would be willing to bet they'd get a lot more if they made it more worthwhile.


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TimothyEllis

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Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2025, 11:11:05 PM »
That is indeed true, but I can't help thinking that Amazon loses a lot of potential advertisers because the system just doesn't work well enough. So while they may be getting decent income from it, I would be willing to bet they'd get a lot more if they made it more worthwhile.

I classify AMS as gambling.

And like all gambling, the house always wins in the long run.
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Post-Doctorate D

Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2025, 01:42:11 AM »
That is indeed true, but I can't help thinking that Amazon loses a lot of potential advertisers because the system just doesn't work well enough. So while they may be getting decent income from it, I would be willing to bet they'd get a lot more if they made it more worthwhile.

A couple weeks or more ago, I read an article on dating sites.  Now, if you're a single person, you're probably thinking that you join a dating site to find a match and then you eventually get married or in a long-term relationship and then you don't need the dating site anymore.  That would seem to be how it works.  And there's always a pool of singles so there are always new customers for the dating sites.

But, customer acquisition is more expensive than customer retention.

According to the article (I don't have the link anymore so I can't provide that), dating sites are designed to more or less string the single person along.  That is, they aren't designed to find the best match for a person but a good enough match to keep a single using the site, to match them with someone that they might have a good date or two with but aren't long-term relationship material so they will continue to be a paying member of the site.  That's according to this article, which I don't have a link to, so I can't confirm that it's true but it would seem to make sense.

So, in my opinion, it's possible AMS works in a similar manner.  Good enough to keep an author hooked on using it but not actually worthwhile for most authors.
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Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2025, 03:12:31 AM »
Well, I don't get a positive ROI from AMS ads--but they are the source of most of my sales. (A little over 75% so far this month.) So I see the point you're making.

But I'm also atypical in that I'm in pretty good shape with nonwriting income. So I could categorize the whole thing, at least in my head, as a kind of hobby. Hobbyists, especially collectors of various kinds, will spend a considerable amount of money. If they decide to discontinue the hobby or die, they or their heirs can probably make a lot of the money back by selling the collection. It may even have appreciated in value. Compared to some of them, my ad expenditures are modest.

However, someone who isn't relatively affluent can't sustain a hobby like that. Perhaps I'm wrong about the demographics, but most writers I've talked money with need to have their writing at least pay for itself. They are not really in a position to gamble. Those people aren't going to keep plowing money into AMS for very long--because they can't. Are there really that many authors who don't expect to at least break even?

Certainly, most of the authors here have bailed out of AMS. Anarchist is the only one I can recall recently saying that it could be profitable.

Other things I've heard earlier suggest that people with a huge budget (and a decent knowledge of how to optimize AMS ads) can make a profit. When I experimented with a higher ad spend, sales went up, and ROI improved, though it still wasn't positive. But it's hard to imagine AMS can sustain itself long-term only on what has to be a relatively small number of people who can afford to spend like that. 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2025, 09:38:12 PM by Bill Hiatt »


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alhawke

Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2025, 03:22:24 AM »
That is indeed true, but I can't help thinking that Amazon loses a lot of potential advertisers because the system just doesn't work well enough. So while they may be getting decent income from it, I would be willing to bet they'd get a lot more if they made it more worthwhile.
I classify AMS as gambling.
And like all gambling, the house always wins in the long run.
I've always seen it as that. AMS has never worked for me and was always a money pit. I spent over $2k to realize that in pain. Fortunately, being wide, I've had mileage with BookBub ads. But even there it's not 1:1 ($1 bid for $1 sale) (I once hit the right algorithms for half a year or so on BB and had that 1:1 success). Unfortunately, ads everywhere always make you lose money. Only by selling in series and collections can you recoup.

Back to "heavy lifting", yes Amazon sends emails but it doesn't correspond with a lot of sales for me. Ranking really doesn't either. I don't think the old strategy of releasing a perfect launch is reliable anymore. It'll help, of course, but you have to be working on a larger plan. Maybe if you're KU, it's all different. I wouldn't know. But wide, I can't rely on Amazon. I pay attention to them, cause I have to due to volume, but my focus isn't solely with Amazon.

Other things I've heard earlier suggest that people with a huge budget (and a decent knowledge of how to optimize AMS ads) can make a profit.
But that's a dangerous proposition. I heard that too a long time ago and bumped up $. No avail. Anyone new to the biz and ads, I advise starting small. If you're ad is going bonkers with sales, then up the ante. But I caution people not to throw down loads of cash and start small.

I wonder if your AMS success is based on KU, Bill? I've always wondered if my failure is due to me being wide and not offering subscription price.
 

Anarchist

Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2025, 04:17:10 AM »
Certainly, most of the authors here have bailed out of AMS. Anarchist is the only one I can recall recently saying that it could be profitable.

It can be VERY profitable. But it requires a lot of work (research, auditing, pruning, and scaling).

I wake up at 4:15 every morning, 7 days a week, and I spend hours on AMS. Learning. Testing. Measuring. It has been a life-changing investment. And there's so much potential I have yet to mine. Stuff for which I have ample evidence works (my search term reports), but not enough time and energy to fully exploit it. And that's just in the U.S. I need to scale in the UK and Canada, too. I'm leaving a ton of money on the table.

I've not met a single author who puts in this time. Mention A9, and they're confused. Mention A10, and their eyes glaze over. Mention how ads improve organic rank and sales, and that's why they MUST track both ACoS and TACoS (at the account level and at the ASIN level), and they just blink at you.

I have one book for which I started experimenting with a new ad tactic. Since early 2023, that single tactic for this single book in the U.S. has generated nearly $120K in sales. But it has required a lot of effort and attention (monitoring bids, reducing exposure on product pages, using bid modifiers to dominate top of search, etc.). I'm now rushing to use this tactic on several other books. First in the U.S. Then the UK.

I've contacted most of the big ad management software platforms (Ad Badger, Seller App, PPC Entourage, JungleScout, Teikametrics, M19 etc.). None of them are designed to work with KDP. So, I do most stuff manually (SO MANY SPREADSHEETS). I do use software. Publisher Rocket for prelim stuff. Subscription-based tools for heavier stuff.

This is the main reason I no longer give advice re: AMS. It's become increasingly complicated, and most authors have been left behind. That's why they're claiming AMS doesn't work.

It doesn't work for them. But it works for me.


Other things I've heard earlier suggest that people with a huge budget (and a decent knowledge of how to optimize AMS ads) can make a profit. When I experimented with a higher ad spend, sales went up, and ROI improved, though it still wasn't positive. But it's hard to imagine AMS can sustain itself long-term only on what has to be a relatively small number of people who can afford to spend like that.

The people I watch spend six figures each month. A few spend much more. (I'm a peasant compared to these advertisers.) I'm guessing that AMS is going to be around for a long time.


"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: there is never enough of anything to fully satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics." - Thomas Sowell

"The State is an institution run by gangs of murderers, plunderers and thieves, surrounded by willing executioners, propagandists, sycophants, crooks, liars, clowns, charlatans, dupes and useful idiots -- an institution that dirties and taints everything it touches." - Hans Hoppe

"Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience." - Adam Smith

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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2025, 10:08:32 PM »
Quote
I wonder if your AMS success is based on KU, Bill? I've always wondered if my failure is due to me being wide and not offering subscription price.
Well, remember that I don't have a positive ROI, so "success" is a very relative term here.

AMS has always sold books for me, right from the very beginning (which was also roughly the same time KU started). The ROI has gotten worse as the field got more crowded. I don't think I ever had a positive ROI, but in the beginning, the loss was much smaller, and it was possible to write it off as an investment in the future.

Unfortunately, as I get older, my work day gets shorter. So, much as I'd like to try putting as much time into it as Anarchist does, if I did that, I wouldn't have any productive time left to write. I have been trying to monitor more carefully. Typically, I kill ads that don't perform. I add negative keywords when inappropriate search terms are leading to hits. I kill keywords or products that produce lots of hits but no few or no sales. Sometimes, that helps. Sometimes, it doesn't.

Books in smaller niches come closer to having a positive ROI. I assume that's because the genre-type searches lead more directly to interested buyers. In broad genres, you inevitably draw in more people. But even subgenre terms (like urban fantasy) are defined differently by different purchasers, and those are big umbrellas with lots of different approaches. Ask someone to distinguish among urban, contemporary, and paranormal, and you'll get lots of different responses. Ask someone what mythology is, and the definitions will be much closer. Hence, ads for my two retellings of myths consistently come closest to positive ROI, sometimes actually achieving it (fewer sales, but far fewer extraneous clicks). One of my education books used to do the same thing, but I notice it's not doing much of anything now. (I don't know if Amazon does this on purpose, but after a while, ads don't accumulate any impressions even if they're still listed as serving. Creating a more or less identical ad solves the problem.)

To your original question, KU is the gateway to making more on Amazon. It's consistently more than half my income, with a few recent exceptions. And the current calculations don't show projected royalties from it as part of ACOS calculations, which would look somewhat better with it included. But the raw numbers don't look that impressive. This month, as I mentioned, about 75% of my sales are from ads, but the ads only claim responsibility for about 10% of my KU pages read. I don't see any logical reason for that discrepancy and think that the KU part of the system may be undercounting how many pages come from ads, but that's just a guess.

I always gross much higher in KU than out of it. But as we well know, your actual mileage may vary.

The other puzzle is the way ad performances fluctuate for no particular reason. One month, an ad will pull in lots of sales. The next month, it will pull in almost none. Does the competition shift that much? Does the type of people who see the ad shift that much? I have no idea, but the fluctuations are wild. I guess if I had the time to do something like Anarchist does, I might find out.


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Hopscotch

Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2025, 11:33:39 PM »
The people I watch spend six figures each month. A few spend much more. (I'm a peasant compared to these advertisers.)

I'm not even a peasant on AMS; I'm the dirt beneath a peasant's bare foot.  On an increasingly rare good month, I break even on AMS.  But AMS accounts for 2/3 of my overall sales and I can't give it up if I want to get my books before even a few eyeballs. 
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Amazon no longer does the "heavy lifting"?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2025, 01:27:50 AM »
The people I watch spend six figures each month. A few spend much more. (I'm a peasant compared to these advertisers.)

I'm not even a peasant on AMS; I'm the dirt beneath a peasant's bare foot.  On an increasingly rare good month, I break even on AMS.  But AMS accounts for 2/3 of my overall sales and I can't give it up if I want to get my books before even a few eyeballs.
Your experience sounds a bit better than mine, but the pattern is certainly similar.

But can there be that many people who are spending six figures? Probably not. It's a shame that the system really only works for them, or for people like Anarchist who spend huge amounts of time. This feels more like a large corporation thing rather than something designed for small, independent vendors (though the KDP version started out not only as indie-author exclusive but as a benefit of KU). I still think Amazon could make more money if it found ways to make the system work better for smaller (but far more numerous) advertisers.


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