The Very Exclusive Nonofficially Unofficial Big Tellers Thread

[Post-Doctorate D]

I think the title is self-explanatory.  This is a big ol' private thread for all the big tellers to gather and chat without those show people sticking their noses in and being all like, you can't tell people what happened, you gotta show it!  Shameful, you know?  We need our own private, inner circle where we can tell each other what's up, because we're storytellers, not storyshowers.   

So, if you're a big teller, hey, this thread is for you and so is this virtual beer.   And if you don't drink beer like me, it's root beer in a golden mug.  And if you're underage, it's water in a golden mug because too much sugar is bad for you plus you're a kid and we don't want you all hyper.  Have an apple.

So, who's all in our camp?

[Lorri Moulton]

LOL

I have no idea what this club is about, but if you're starting it...there has to be crazy and fun involved!  I'm in. 

[ragdoll]

I swing both ways.

[Post-Doctorate D]

LOL

I have no idea what this club is about, but if you're starting it...there has to be crazy and fun involved!  I'm in. 

Just playing around with the whole "Big Sellers" thing and "show vs. tell" at the same time.  I guess this might be more like one of those dreaded craft threads.

I swing both ways.

My guess is that probably most of us do.  Sometimes, it's best to show.  Other times, it's best to just tell.  I think it depends.  And maybe too much of one way or the other is bad.

Or I'm just not a good enough writer to show, show, show and need a therapy thread for others like me.

[guest14]

I've never understood the show vs tell - I just write stories.

It's like when I'm told my work doesn't conform to CMOS, I usually turn around and say "what do they know about CR2032's?"

[Post-Doctorate D]

It's like when I'm told my work doesn't conform to CMOS, I usually turn around and say "what do they know about CR2032's?"

That's my reaction when someone refers to a Macintosh computer as a MAC.  It's like, when did the conversation turn to Media Access Controls?

[Tom Wood]

I do like storyshowers when they rain down some great ideas!

[guest120]

My neighbor used to shower with tellers. Guess that's what led to his divorce. 

[Post-Doctorate D]

I do like storyshowers when they rain down some great ideas!

But if they're heavy ideas, they hurt your head when they hit.

[Tom Wood]

My neighbor used to shower with tellers. Guess that's what led to his divorce. 

They should have taken a cold shower!

[Lorri Moulton]

I thought I knew what show vs. tell meant, but apparently not. LOL

When I was in a writers' group, they had an entirely different way of looking at it.


New emoji!  Long live WriterSanctum

 

 

[Post-Doctorate D]

I thought I knew what show vs. tell meant, but apparently not. LOL

When I was in a writers' group, they had an entirely different way of looking at it.

Please tell us more.  Don't assume I know what I'm talking about. 

[Tom Wood]

I do like storyshowers when they rain down some great ideas!

But if they're heavy ideas, they hurt your head when they hit.

[Lorri Moulton]

I thought I knew what show vs. tell meant, but apparently not. LOL

When I was in a writers' group, they had an entirely different way of looking at it.

Please tell us more.  Don't assume I know what I'm talking about. 

How do you define show vs. tell? 

[Post-Doctorate D]

How do you define show vs. tell? 

SHOW: His hand reached for the brushed steel door handle.  Still moist from perspiration after his lengthy performance, it nearly slipped off but he firmed his grip and turned the knob.  It creaked as he moved it.  Just like my bones, he thought.  Rotated all the way, the knob stopped in his hand.  He pushed the scratched-up door but it remained stuck.  He leaned in with his shoulder, nearly losing his balance, and pushed harder to overcome the friction.  The door gave way and he almost tripped over the threshold.  Regaining his stance, he took a deep breath of the crisp night air as he stepped outside onto the deteriorating pavement.

TELL: Elvis left the building.

[guest120]

How do you define show vs. tell? 

SHOW: His hand reached for the brushed steel door handle.  Still moist from perspiration after his lengthy performance, it nearly slipped off but he firmed his grip and turned the knob.  It creaked as he moved it.  Just like my bones, he thought.  Rotated all the way, the knob stopped in his hand.  He pushed the scratched-up door but it remained stuck.  He leaned in with his shoulder, nearly losing his balance, and pushed harder to overcome the friction.  The door gave way and he almost tripped over the threshold.  Regaining his stance, he took a deep breath of the crisp night air as he stepped outside onto the deteriorating pavement.

TELL: Elvis left the building.

Is it wrong that I prefer the 'telling' here?

[Post-Doctorate D]

Is it wrong that I prefer the 'telling' here?

No.  Sometimes I think you want to set the mood, define the scene, really dig into what's going on.  Other times, it's like the character left the building, what more do you need to know?

[guest120]

Is it wrong that I prefer the 'telling' here?

No.  Sometimes I think you want to set the mood, define the scene, really dig into what's going on.  Other times, it's like the character left the building, what more do you need to know?

Yes. I just wish as a writer I knew which to engage in more often. I feel like I'm lost a lot of the time even if, objectively, I'm not.

[Post-Doctorate D]

Is it wrong that I prefer the 'telling' here?

No.  Sometimes I think you want to set the mood, define the scene, really dig into what's going on.  Other times, it's like the character left the building, what more do you need to know?

Yes. I just wish as a writer I knew which to engage in more often. I feel like I'm lost a lot of the time even if, objectively, I'm not.

I know the feeling.  I often feel like I'm not showing enough, but then there's a point at which it just drags down the story.  And if there's a scene that's playing out in a rapid pace, you don't want to spend page after page describing something that's supposed to be happening in a matter of seconds.

[Mark Gardner]

I've never understood the show vs tell - I just write stories.

It's like when I'm told my work doesn't conform to CMOS, I usually turn around and say "what do they know about CR2032's?"

or CR2025s

[Mark Gardner]

It's like when I'm told my work doesn't conform to CMOS, I usually turn around and say "what do they know about CR2032's?"

That's my reaction when someone refers to a Macintosh computer as a MAC.  It's like, when did the conversation turn to Media Access Controls?

or Machine Access Code.

[RappaDizzy]

Everyone has an opinion on this. Even my lawyer told me to stop showing things.

[Jeff Tanyard]

I'm more of a shower than a teller.  But I don't judge.  I love everybody.   

[Maggie Ann]

I've never understood the show vs tell - I just write stories.

It's like when I'm told my work doesn't conform to CMOS, I usually turn around and say "what do they know about CR2032's?"

or CR2025s

Hah! You think you can fool me with your clever ways and hidden meanings. But I know what you are saying here.

Can we include saying instead of showing and telling? There are other paths to enlightenment, you know. 

[Eric Thomson]

First, I tell her and if she doesn't believe me, I show her....
 

[Lorri Moulton]

How do you define show vs. tell? 

SHOW: His hand reached for the brushed steel door handle.  Still moist from perspiration after his lengthy performance, it nearly slipped off but he firmed his grip and turned the knob.  It creaked as he moved it.  Just like my bones, he thought.  Rotated all the way, the knob stopped in his hand.  He pushed the scratched-up door but it remained stuck.  He leaned in with his shoulder, nearly losing his balance, and pushed harder to overcome the friction.  The door gave way and he almost tripped over the threshold.  Regaining his stance, he took a deep breath of the crisp night air as he stepped outside onto the deteriorating pavement.

TELL: Elvis left the building.

Yup.   That's what they said.

I thought it was...show the characters doing things in the story through dialogue and interaction, rather than an info dump or personal narrative.  Don't tell me what the characters are doing, show me what the characters are doing.

Oh well, that's how I do it.  No flowery description for me unless I'm describing a house or garden.   

[LilyBLily]

Additionally, the real sticklers insist that "he thought" in your example is wrong. They want "deep point of view." I keep trying to do it, but where I fail is when I have to use 200 words to show a reaction from a non-POV character when I could have just written, "he said, sarcastically"--and as we ALL KNOW, adverbs are totally, utterly, forbidden AND the sign of a lazy, talentless writer.

Bah.

[Post-Doctorate D]

Additionally, the real sticklers insist that "he thought" in your example is wrong. They want "deep point of view." I keep trying to do it, but where I fail is when I have to use 200 words to show a reaction from a non-POV character when I could have just written, "he said, sarcastically"--and as we ALL KNOW, adverbs are totally, utterly, forbidden AND the sign of a lazy, talentless writer.

Bah.

True, but how else can you show a character's thoughts?

Oy, I use adverbs too.  No wonder I'm not a big seller.

[Kyra Halland]

Additionally, the real sticklers insist that "he thought" in your example is wrong. They want "deep point of view." I keep trying to do it, but where I fail is when I have to use 200 words to show a reaction from a non-POV character when I could have just written, "he said, sarcastically"--and as we ALL KNOW, adverbs are totally, utterly, forbidden AND the sign of a lazy, talentless writer.

Bah.

They can have my adverbs when they pry them out of my cold, dead hands, for exactly this reason.

Is it wrong that I prefer the 'telling' here?

No.  Sometimes I think you want to set the mood, define the scene, really dig into what's going on.  Other times, it's like the character left the building, what more do you need to know?

Yes. I just wish as a writer I knew which to engage in more often. I feel like I'm lost a lot of the time even if, objectively, I'm not.

I know the feeling.  I often feel like I'm not showing enough, but then there's a point at which it just drags down the story.  And if there's a scene that's playing out in a rapid pace, you don't want to spend page after page describing something that's supposed to be happening in a matter of seconds.

Exactly. Telling has its place.

[guest120]

Meh, the big sellers use adverbs, including the big seller who said in his excellent book on craft that the road to hell is paved with them. Honestly, I think a lot of advice like that is meant for people who have the loosest of grasps on craft to begin with.

I liken it to a famous singer who will speak on the rules for singing and those amateurs out there with a decent singing voice will fret because they think they're doing things wrong, when really those rules the famous singer was speaking about more apply to those folks who turn up on 'American Idol' believing they can sing when they can't even carry a single note.

I think if you know how to write 'well enough' (however you define that) you can break just about any rule and still publish stories readers will find appealing.

[Maggie Ann]

Additionally, the real sticklers insist that "he thought" in your example is wrong. They want "deep point of view." I keep trying to do it, but where I fail is when I have to use 200 words to show a reaction from a non-POV character when I could have just written, "he said, sarcastically"--and as we ALL KNOW, adverbs are totally, utterly, forbidden AND the sign of a lazy, talentless writer.

Bah.

They can have my adverbs when they pry them out of my cold, dead hands, for exactly this reason.

Yes. As a reader, I want to know what the speaker is feeling right at that moment. I don't want to plow through a bunch of unnecessary words to get to that point. I think adverbs can actually move the action forward.

[Laughing Elephant]

Once upon a time under a blood moon, I came across a dog and cat having a conversation. I asked why would they speak to each other as I'd heard that they (these two particular species) were sworn enemies.

I thought I should show you what they told me


a- hem

{{{cough}}}



 


They secretly love each other 4 evar!

[Jeff Tanyard]

Additionally, the real sticklers insist that "he thought" in your example is wrong. They want "deep point of view." I keep trying to do it, but where I fail is when I have to use 200 words to show a reaction from a non-POV character when I could have just written, "he said, sarcastically"--and as we ALL KNOW, adverbs are totally, utterly, forbidden AND the sign of a lazy, talentless writer.

Bah.

They can have my adverbs when they pry them out of my cold, dead hands, for exactly this reason.

Yes. As a reader, I want to know what the speaker is feeling right at that moment. I don't want to plow through a bunch of unnecessary words to get to that point. I think adverbs can actually move the action forward.

Yep.  Its a pacing issue.  If "showing" means having a fast-moving scene slow to a crawl, then "telling" is probably the better choice.

[Mammasan]

"Oy, I use adverbs too.  No wonder I'm not a big seller.."


I use adverbs too. Though I draw the line at "worriedly."

[VanessaC]

Showing, telling, adverbing, adjectiving - it's all about how you use them, surely?

Too much of anything is a Bad Thing, with the possible exceptions of kittens, puppies, red wine and chocolate (although I suspect the medical profession would disagree on the last two).

I think when you (generic you) are writing for yourself, and you want to follow The Rules, by all means have at it.  However, when you're writing for someone else - i.e. to publish and have others read your words and, hopefully, enjoy the stories you tell, you need to think about your readers.

If the story is better with describing words and emotion words, and has a better pace if you don't describe every last bit of progress, then that's a Good Thing as far as I'm concerned.

 

[ragdoll]

I use adverbs too. Though I draw the line at "worriedly."

I draw the line at this, from a 2018 Grand Central Publishing book: "As he stared down at the corpse, [Joe Blow Protagonist] felt himself audibly gasp."

[Post-Doctorate D]

He said, agitatedly. 

[Max]

I use adverbs too. Though I draw the line at "worriedly."

I draw the line at this, from a 2018 Grand Central Publishing book: "As he stared down at the corpse, [Joe Blow Protagonist] felt himself audibly gasp."

/cringe

[Jeff Tanyard]

I guess audibly gasping is preferable to inaudibly gasping.  So that book has that going for it.   

[Post-Doctorate D]

In space, you can only gasp inaudibly.

[Jeff Tanyard]

In space, you can only gasp inaudibly.

I have no mouth but I must gasp.