Widows and Orphans

[R. C.]

After another round of research into the formatting of paperback books, I developed a wonder...

What's your rule on orphans and widows? 
Do you follow the "two line" rule?
Do you balance the pages?
Does "make it look good" override old-school rules?

TYIA

R.C.

[Vijaya]

RC, I will edit to make the page look good when formatting for paperback because I like having every chapter begin on a new page. So yes, def. no widows or orphans

[Post-Doctorate D]

I also have a tiny illustration/dingbat that marks the end of a chapter so that gives me an additional challenge when faced with chapters that would otherwise end on the very bottom of the page.  So I have to tweak things so the dingbat will be on the bottom and not flow to a page by itself.

I also try to ensure that new chapters start on an odd-numbered page so a new chapter will always be on the right-hand page and not the left side.

[Bill Hiatt]

I do whatever Vellum does.

Vellum automatically eliminates widows and eliminates orphans only after a scene break, though I believe those settings are adjustable. Vellum also automatically spread balances (makes sure each set of facing pages have the same number of lines in each.

As far as old-school rules vs looking good, I'm not sure I can think of an example in which those principles conflict, but I'd go with looking good if they did.

[R. C.]

...

I also try to ensure that new chapters start on an odd-numbered page so a new chapter will always be on the right-hand page and not the left side.

Emphasis added...

What does the hive-mind think about chapters on the right and on an odd numbered page?

In today's laissez faire world of publishing, is it a necessary effort?

R.C.

Also, "The original phrase was laissez faire, laissez passer, with the second part meaning "let (things) pass"

Also part two: I posted the question then found a crisp definition: MSU Publishing and Book Design Basics: Elements of page design

[Bill Hiatt]

That's standard for the first page of the first chapter. I'd maybe do it with others for a deluxe print edition, but otherwise, no. The practice uses more paper and increases print (and therefore retail) costs, and I'm not really seeing an up side.

[elleoco]

No widows or orphans for me, but I agree with Bill. Chapters all starting on the right is a nice touch, but it's a waste of paper and I don't do it.

[Post-Doctorate D]

On the last (and only) paperback I did through Amazon, I put something like "This is the last page of the book." on the very last page of the book, an even-numbered page.  Amazon added several blank (but numbered) pages after that page.



So, yeah, I'm not going to worry about whether making my chapters start on the right hand side is going to "waste" paper or not.

[LilyBLily]

I want my print books to be indistinguishable from traditionally published print books. Therefore, I do start chapters on recto pages, and I use a half-title page in the frontmatter, too, as well as a frontispiece--although mine is an Also by page instead of a beautifully rendered drawing by Charles Dana Gibson. He did the illos for The Prisoner of Zenda and its sequel, Rupert of Hentzau.

I've been known to waste a couple of pages on a dedication, too.

Amazon always adds pages at the end. Theoretically these are to make the complete signature--the number of pages rendered by a folded large piece of paper--but I haven't counted to make sure and these days I'm not up on whether signatures are being used for these low print run books. Some other method might apply.

[Post-Doctorate D]

Amazon always adds pages at the end. Theoretically these are to make the complete signature--the number of pages rendered by a folded large piece of paper--but I haven't counted to make sure and these days I'm not up on whether signatures are being used for these low print run books. Some other method might apply.

I kind of doubt signatures are being used for POD books but I recall that I did make sure my pages were in multiples of 4, 8 or 16 (I think Amazon may have had instructions in that regard) so even if signatures were being used, I should have been covered.

I should check sometime to compare my page count to the actual page count in the printed book and calculate if maybe they are using signatures or if something else is going on.

[Bill Hiatt]

On the last (and only) paperback I did through Amazon, I put something like "This is the last page of the book." on the very last page of the book, an even-numbered page.  Amazon added several blank (but numbered) pages after that page.



So, yeah, I'm not going to worry about whether making my chapters start on the right hand side is going to "waste" paper or not.

Keep in mind that Amazon may well print in four-page "signatures" (four pages printed on each piece of paper). That means that if a book ends up being a number of pages not divisible by four, there could be excess at the end, up to three pages. If it uses larger initial paper stock and therefor a larger signature, the number could be greater. But that's a common printing practice, not some horrid invention of Amazon's. And I don't see it as a reason to add even more excess pages. Putting aside environmental concerns, that increases the eventual retail price of the book. That's okay if it gives the readers better ease of use or readability, but I don't think the extra pages improve the reader experience in this case. (I use a higher inside margin than Amazon recommends in a given print size to avoid text close enough to the fold that people have to break the spine to read the book, but that extra space does improve reader experience.

[Post-Doctorate D]

On the last (and only) paperback I did through Amazon, I put something like "This is the last page of the book." on the very last page of the book, an even-numbered page.  Amazon added several blank (but numbered) pages after that page.



So, yeah, I'm not going to worry about whether making my chapters start on the right hand side is going to "waste" paper or not.

Keep in mind that Amazon may well print in four-page "signatures" (four pages printed on each piece of paper). That means that if a book ends up being a number of pages not divisible by four, there could be excess at the end, up to three pages. If it uses larger initial paper stock and therefor a larger signature, the number could be greater.

I just looked at the two (forgot I had two) paperbacks I have on Amazon.

First book has 744 pages in my file.  That's divisible by both 4 and 8 but not 16.  So, if they use signatures of 4 or 8, then it should be good without adding extra pages.  If they use signatures of 16, then the final page count should be 752.  Amazon added 6 pages for a total of 750 which is not divisible by 4, 8 or 16.

Second book has 212 pages in my file.  That's divisible by 4 but not 8 or 16.  Again, if they use signatures of 4, it should be good.  If they use signatures of 8, the final page count should be 216.  If they use signatures of 16, the final page count should be 224.  Amazon added 4 pages to the book bringing it up to 216.  That matches a signature of 8.

So, I don't know what that tells us.  If they print using signatures, they should have added 0 or 8 pages to the first book and 0, 4 or 8 to the second book.  But they added 6 to the first and 4 to the second.

[Bill Hiatt]

Then I'm officially baffled.

Sorry to have been repetitive about the signature thing. I was responding to Post Crisis D's earlier post that I quoted and didn't see the subsequent ones. But somehow, mine was time stamped six hour later. Maybe I just spaced out...

[Post-Doctorate D]

Then I'm officially baffled.

I think we have to bear in mind that it's Amazon.   

It would be nice to know though because, at least in the one book, it looks funny to have "You have reached the last page of the book" on a page that's not actually the last page of the book.  If I knew they were using a certain size of signature, I could adjust my page count so that line lands on the last page.

As it is, it appears unpredictable.  I guess the only way is to order a proof and then work from that.

[Bill Hiatt]

I notice mine has a notation about where it was printed on the very last page, preceded by five blank ones. Not counting the print location page, the book's pages (numbered and unnumbered) divides exactly by four. I wonder if that last page is printing using a different signature protocol, and that's what throws things off. I'm too lazy right now to see if other books fit the same pattern.

[Post-Doctorate D]

I notice mine has a notation about where it was printed on the very last page, preceded by five blank ones. Not counting the print location page, the book's pages (numbered and unnumbered) divides exactly by four. I wonder if that last page is printing using a different signature protocol, and that's what throws things off. I'm too lazy right now to see if other books fit the same pattern.

If we discount that page from my books, then we end up with page counts of 748 and 214 respectively.  While 748 is divisible by 4 (but not 8 or 16), 214 is not divisible by 4, 8 or 16.

Or, if that page is printed on a 4 page signature, then discounting it results in 746 and 212 where 746 is not divisible by 4 but 212 is.  And 212 is my page count for that particular book.

So, we're still not getting anything that makes sense.

[Hopscotch]

I love this thread - for its trying to fathom the unfathomable Zon.