What's the best site to copyright your work that isn't a potential scam?

[MattT]

Like the header says, I need to copyright the whole of my saga, and my last copyright was tied to a scam company and when I search records, it doesn't come up. So I need to copyright my work and I don't know where to go to find the a legit copy-righter to do that. This place has already been proven to be a wealth of information and guidance and I'd take this websites direction before I take anyone else' at this point.

Thank you for your time. 

[alhawke]

Did the "scam" company submit a copyright to the US copyright office? It sounds like you checked their database and they didn't. If you didn't publish it, they probably didn't submit. But there is a slight chance that they submitted an early submission pre-publication. I don't know the legal rules with that if they already instigated one.

You might have to consult a legal attorney if you already signed rights to this company and they haven't provided the rights back.

If they never submitted copyright, you may copyright via copyright.gov in the US online. You usually would do this after you publish your book. It's costly, because it's around $60 per book.

This all applies to United States law. All my books are copyrighted.

Books do not have to be copyrighted if published in the United States. IF they weren't copyrighted before. The reason to copyright a book is for legal reasons to help with DMCA (take downs for pirated books) and to go after someone copying your book via the US legal system. Many authors do not copyright their materials because, again, once published it is defacto copyrighted as long as you can show evidence of publication. But you will have difficulty getting $ back in a law suit in the United States if you don't have an official copyright.

Hope all that helps.

[TimothyEllis]

Copyright is automatic.

You wrote it, so you own the copyright.

You cement that with the copyright statement in the front matter, and what follows it.

The only reason for registering copyright in the US is if you intend to sue someone for infringement in the future, and want to claim damages from it.

That's all the registration is for. Without it, you can't claim damages even if you win the suet.

The reality is, most authors can't afford to sue anyone. When they do, the whole process destroys their ability to write during that period, and it's not worth it in the end anyway.

If someone pirates your book, most of the time they don't have it anyway, just the sample. Pirate sites are whack a mole anyway, and not worth the trouble, since they do nothing if you complain.

If your book gets put on a reputable site like Amazon, you fill in the take down notice form, and a month or so later after investigation, the pirated book will be taken down. Your publishing date for the first time on each book is all you really need to prove ownership. Once you tell the site where the original is, they can compare them, and when published, and the copy will be taken down.

I had this a couple of years ago, where someone put the same book up 5 times with different titles and author names, but using my series name as a base, and elements of the cover. Took a month, and listing all 5 infringements, but they were taken down. One of my fans pointed 3 of them out, and I found the other 2.

So registering copyright is not necessary, unless you want to go to court against someone.

However, if the book is pirated, the chances are, you will never identify who did it anyway, so never get them into a court.

The take down system does work. It's slow, but works.

[alhawke]

Like the header says, I need to copyright the whole of my saga, and my last copyright was tied to a scam company and when I search records, it doesn't come up.

But my concern here is he's saying his "last copyright was tied to a scam company". If they copyrighted the work, they can legally go after him if he publishes the work. So I urge you, MattT, to make sure you didn't agree to that contractually. Cause if you did, they own your work. Check all contracts you signed off on.

If they didn't, then you can proceed as Timothy is saying. You don't have to copyright a book as it's defacto yours after it's published. He and I haven't agreed on this in the past. And, probably, most Indies don't officially copyright, I'm thinking... I have opted for extra protection. But it's cost me $ to do it, as I said.

[TimothyEllis]

Like the header says, I need to copyright the whole of my saga, and my last copyright was tied to a scam company and when I search records, it doesn't come up.

But my concern here is he's saying his "last copyright was tied to a scam company". If they copyrighted the work, they can legally go after him if he publishes the work. So I urge you, MattT, to make sure you didn't agree to that contractually. Cause if you did, they own your work. Check all contracts you signed off on.

@Matt - Did you sign anything?

If not, then there's no issue.

If yes, then you need a legal opinion on what you did.

[Post-Doctorate D]

If they never submitted copyright, you may copyright via copyright.gov in the US online. You usually would do this after you publish your book. It's costly, because it's around $60 per book.

The standard application is $65.  But, if you're the sole author, the sole claimant and you're registering a single work that was not a work for hire, you can use the single author application for $45.

[Jeff Tanyard]

As others have said, go directly to the U.S. Copyright Office's website and register the copyright online.  Budget at least an hour of time to do it, because government web sites are rarely user-friendly, or at least that's always been my experience.

The fee you pay varies depending on the details.  See their prices here:

https://www.copyright.gov/about/fees.html

You'll need a digital copy of your book at the ready to upload to the site.  A pdf, if I recall correctly.

Copyright is for published works only, so don't do any of this until after you've published the book.  I usually go to the Copyright Office's site right after publishing on Amazon.

Once you've completed the application and paid the fee, and assuming everything goes off without a hitch, you'll get the official copyright certificate in the mail some weeks or months later.

[MattT]

Like the header says, I need to copyright the whole of my saga, and my last copyright was tied to a scam company and when I search records, it doesn't come up.

But my concern here is he's saying his "last copyright was tied to a scam company". If they copyrighted the work, they can legally go after him if he publishes the work. So I urge you, MattT, to make sure you didn't agree to that contractually. Cause if you did, they own your work. Check all contracts you signed off on.

@Matt - Did you sign anything?

If not, then there's no issue.

If yes, then you need a legal opinion on what you did.

No I didn't sign anything, I came close to it though. I just wanted to know, because they tried to scam me "Book Writing League" and I very nearly did sign their agreement, but when they kept pushing for an NDA and Service Agreement before they'd answer the bulk of my questions, I cut ties with them. If you go to TrustPilot and GoogleReviews for "BookWritingLeague" the most recent review was mine.

[TimothyEllis]

Like the header says, I need to copyright the whole of my saga, and my last copyright was tied to a scam company and when I search records, it doesn't come up.

But my concern here is he's saying his "last copyright was tied to a scam company". If they copyrighted the work, they can legally go after him if he publishes the work. So I urge you, MattT, to make sure you didn't agree to that contractually. Cause if you did, they own your work. Check all contracts you signed off on.

@Matt - Did you sign anything?

If not, then there's no issue.

If yes, then you need a legal opinion on what you did.

No I didn't sign anything, I came close to it though.

You don't have a problem then.

Copyright registration is optional.

The criteria I'd use is can you afford to sue someone or not? If not, you don't need registration.

Then again, I'm not in a country where litigation is so prevalent.

[MattT]

If they never submitted copyright, you may copyright via copyright.gov in the US online. You usually would do this after you publish your book. It's costly, because it's around $60 per book.

The standard application is $65.  But, if you're the sole author, the sole claimant and you're registering a single work that was not a work for hire, you can use the single author application for $45.

Everyone's statement here, is quickly making me realize how deeply inept I am in all this.

[TimothyEllis]

If they never submitted copyright, you may copyright via copyright.gov in the US online. You usually would do this after you publish your book. It's costly, because it's around $60 per book.

The standard application is $65.  But, if you're the sole author, the sole claimant and you're registering a single work that was not a work for hire, you can use the single author application for $45.

Everyone's statement here, is quickly making me realize how deeply inept I am in all this.

Wrong word.

Underprepared is a better word. 

Most new authors, and I was one of them, simply don't know what they don't know, and don't think to ask about such things.

It's why we tell new authors not to rush to publish.

[Post-Doctorate D]

In the U.S., it's best to think of copyright registration as an insurance policy.  For full protection, you need to register within three months of first publication or before any infringement occurs.  That "insurance policy" is a one-time fee of $45-$65.  That's a pretty cheap insurance policy.

Okay, so maybe today you can't afford to sue someone who infringes upon your copyright.  But, what happens in the future if you can afford a lawsuit against an infringer but did not have a registered copyright?  Well, before you can sue, you will have to register the copyright and wait until it is registered.  Next, because you waited until after your work was infringed, you can only collect actual losses/damages (which you will have to prove) and you will be responsible for attorney's fees even if you win.  On the other hand, if your work was registered prior to infringement, you can sue for statutory damages as well as attorney's fees.

One hopes to never have to file a copyright infringement lawsuit, but, in the event you ever have to, registration is a really cheap insurance policy for the benefits it gets you.

[Post-Doctorate D]

Also, even if you can't afford a lawsuit, an infringer doesn't necessarily know that and, if you point out to an infringer that you have a registered copyright on a work and the benefits it provides, that may encourage them to settle and a lawsuit need not be filed.

Because the other side of the equation is whether the infringer can afford a lawsuit.  And, once they learn statutory damages can range from $750 to $30,000 per work infringed, or as much as $150k if the infringement was determined to be willful, plus that they will be on the hook for your attorney's fees as well as their own, well, they may be highly inclined to avoid such a lawsuit.

[Jeff Tanyard]

I would add that there are times when Amazon demands proof that the story you published is actually yours.  Sometimes you can just tell them it's yours in an email and that's good enough, but maybe it won't be, and having the registered copyright is a way to curb-stomp any challengers to your claim.

Everyone's statement here, is quickly making me realize how deeply inept I am in all this.

Then you've come to the right place, haven't you?   

We all had to learn this stuff at some point.  Don't get discouraged.  There's really not that much you need to learn or do beforehand.  But the things you need to know are pretty important, or at least they might turn out to be important.  Like Tim said, don't rush to publish.  Take your time, learn everything you can, and get all your ducks in a row before proceeding to the KDP upload page.

[TimothyEllis]

Also, even if you can't afford a lawsuit, an infringer doesn't necessarily know that and, if you point out to an infringer that you have a registered copyright on a work and the benefits it provides, that may encourage them to settle and a lawsuit need not be filed.

Because the other side of the equation is whether the infringer can afford a lawsuit.  And, once they learn statutory damages can range from $750 to $30,000 per work infringed, or as much as $150k if the infringement was determined to be willful, plus that they will be on the hook for your attorney's fees as well as their own, well, they may be highly inclined to avoid such a lawsuit.

The problem is, this only works if you know who the infringer is.

That presupposes that it's someone you know, and someone who had opportunity to steal the book.

If it's Pirate Pete, then you will never know who it was, and even if it's on Amazon, you will never get a name out of them.

And if you don't know who did it, you can't sue them.

[MattT]

I would add that there are times when Amazon demands proof that the story you published is actually yours.  Sometimes you can just tell them it's yours in an email and that's good enough, but maybe it won't be, and having the registered copyright is a way to curb-stomp any challengers to your claim.

Everyone's statement here, is quickly making me realize how deeply inept I am in all this.

Then you've come to the right place, haven't you?   

We all had to learn this stuff at some point.  Don't get discouraged.  There's really not that much you need to learn or do beforehand.  But the things you need to know are pretty important, or at least they might turn out to be important.  Like Tim said, don't rush to publish.  Take your time, learn everything you can, and get all your ducks in a row before proceeding to the KDP upload page.

How do I go about hiring beta readers for niche-specific reading? I posted something in the proofreading area, but is there a better place to ask for it? Since you're mentioning getting my ducks in a row.

[Bill Hiatt]

My mother had a talent for figuring out the worst-case scenario, and I seem to have inherited it.

It's true that most authors won't normally be able to afford an expensive copyright lawsuit, and you can do DMCA takedowns without having to be registered.

But here's some food for your nightmares--what happens if someone else copyrights your work? It's not difficult for a hacker to crack an ebook and convert the text to some other format. If the book isn't copyrighted, the cracked text could be set up as a Word document and then sent in.

A copyright registration would be enough for anyone to be able to get your takedown notice voided. Sure, you could probably prove that you wrote the material originally, but you'd have to do that in court, which could be a long and expensive process. And until that's done, it would be tough to register the work yourself.

Also, your heirs normally hold the copyright for 70 years after your death. You can prove you wrote something. But if an issue comes up posthumously, will they know how to prove you wrote it?

Has this scenario ever happened? Not that I know of. But it is possible.

Note to self: send the books I haven't already registered into the copyright office right away!

[R. C.]

Specific to the US...

"First, copyright protects original works of authorship, including literary works like books, essays, articles, blogs, and poetry. ..."

"Second, you should know that copyright protection exists from the moment an original work is ?fixed? in a tangible medium. For writers, fixation occurs when your ideas are written down on paper or typed using a computer, for example. You don?t need to do anything else for your work to be protected by copyright. "

From: www.copywrite.gov

R.C.

[TimothyEllis]

But here's some food for your nightmares--what happens if someone else copyrights your work? It's not difficult for a hacker to crack an ebook and convert the text to some other format. If the book isn't copyrighted, the cracked text could be set up as a Word document and then sent in.

A copyright registration would be enough for anyone to be able to get your takedown notice voided. Sure, you could probably prove that you wrote the material originally, but you'd have to do that in court, which could be a long and expensive process. And until that's done, it would be tough to register the work yourself.

Also, your heirs normally hold the copyright for 70 years after your death. You can prove you wrote something. But if an issue comes up posthumously, will they know how to prove you wrote it?

The date your book is published on Amazon should be all that's needed.

The bogus registration will be AFTER that, as will their copy of the book's publishing date.

The only time this is an issue is if the book is stolen BEFORE publishing, and published and registered first.

That publishing date on Amazon should be all that is needed, once the two books are deemed the same.

In any case, why would anyone bother to register a book they know is stolen? If the author can afford to sue them, they will. If not, then there's no benefit anyway, since the book isn't going to sell enough to make it worth it.

[PJ Post]

OpenAI offers free accounts. Try it and see for yourself. What's the worst that can happen?

[Post-Doctorate D]

The problem is, this only works if you know who the infringer is.

That presupposes that it's someone you know, and someone who had opportunity to steal the book.

If it's Pirate Pete, then you will never know who it was, and even if it's on Amazon, you will never get a name out of them.

And if you don't know who did it, you can't sue them.

Even if you can't afford a lawsuit, you may be able to afford to have an attorney draft a letter.  And a web host or even Amazon may be more forthcoming after receiving a letter from an attorney than an eMail from a random author.

[Post-Doctorate D]

In any case, why would anyone bother to register a book they know is stolen? If the author can afford to sue them, they will. If not, then there's no benefit anyway, since the book isn't going to sell enough to make it worth it.

Maybe they assume the author hasn't registered because they can't afford to sue for copyright infringement.  By your arguments, there's a good chance they may be right.

What if the book isn't selling because the author isn't doing the "right" things?  And the thief does the right things and sells a boatload of books?

What if the infringer can afford a lawsuit?  At the very least, the author can't afford to sue the infringer, right?  And if the infringer argues you stole the book from them and published first?  If sites side with the infringer, what are you going to do? 

[TimothyEllis]

The problem is, this only works if you know who the infringer is.

That presupposes that it's someone you know, and someone who had opportunity to steal the book.

If it's Pirate Pete, then you will never know who it was, and even if it's on Amazon, you will never get a name out of them.

And if you don't know who did it, you can't sue them.

Even if you can't afford a lawsuit, you may be able to afford to have an attorney draft a letter.  And a web host or even Amazon may be more forthcoming after receiving a letter from an attorney than an eMail from a random author.

I can't see it. The time I had to do a take down, Amazon did them without a murmur. All it took was identifying the copies were identical, and my original publishing date.

And again, you need to know who it is for a lawyer to send a letter to, and Amazon isn't going to tell you.

The pirates do not use their own names as the author names. If they use their own name on the account, Amazon is going to ban them.

[Post-Doctorate D]

And again, you need to know who it is for a lawyer to send a letter to, and Amazon isn't going to tell you.

Amazon is not going to tell you.  What I am saying is that if you have an attorney send the letter to Amazon, then Amazon may be more forthcoming.

[alhawke]

But here's some food for your nightmares--what happens if someone else copyrights your work?

I think I have read about things like that happening. The trick for the criminal is to get the book early and then publish it themselves (this is why I am careful giving manuscripts to beta readers).

Everyone's statement here, is quickly making me realize how deeply inept I am in all this.

It's easy to say the wrong thing or infer the wrong info when you're just starting out. You might want to read an Indie publishing book like Write, Publish and Repeat. That book gave me a ton of info on the business. But now it's a bit old.

Playing devil's advocate, you can throw in the towel and find a respectable Vanity Press any time. Some of them don't scam you so much as take a lot of your money--which is still scamming in a way. Many will get you a cover and publish your book and then walk away. It'll cost you at least 4x the amount of publishing by yourself and you'll be left with a book you still need to market.

To do publishing right, you'll have to research lots of stuff. Ask away. Everyone here likes to help.

[LilyBLily]

To find beta readers, I use Fiverr. I carefully sift through the people offering beta reading services and look for the ones who list my subgenre as their top preference. I don't pay a lot of money for these beta reads, under $100 per, but I console myself with the thought that the reader actually enjoys my subgenre and thus is getting a free book to read. A typical beta read includes in-line tracked comments and a summary of the reader's reactions. You can also ask the reader to look for certain things, but I prefer not to. It's best to have at least two or three beta reads; the idea behind that is if two of the beta readers object to something, you probably should consider changing it. If only one objects, don't bother.

As to copyright registration, you've received excellent advice. I register for copyright on all my books. A lawyer's cease and desist letter can run you a few hundred dollars to well over a thousand. A lawsuit will probably start at $20k.

[R. C.]

To find beta readers, I use Fiverr. I carefully sift through the people offering beta reading services and look for the ones who list my subgenre as their top preference. I don't pay a lot of money for these beta reads, under $100 per, but I console myself with the thought that the reader actually enjoys my subgenre and thus is getting a free book to read. A typical beta read includes in-line tracked comments and a summary of the reader's reactions. You can also ask the reader to look for certain things, but I prefer not to. It's best to have at least two or three beta reads; the idea behind that is if two of the beta readers object to something, you probably should consider changing it. If only one objects, don't bother.

As to copyright registration, you've received excellent advice. I register for copyright on all my books. A lawyer's cease and desist letter can run you a few hundred dollars to well over a thousand. A lawsuit will probably start at $20k.

I switched to Upwork when I found Fivver didn't check closely of the service provider's location.  My request model is very similar to yours. Also, I limit my requests to US based providers, although I have used, British, Canadian, and Austrailian providers.

R.C.

[Jeff Tanyard]

I register for copyright on all my books.

Same here.

As D said earlier, it's cheap insurance.  Better to have and not need than to need and not have.

[djmills]

When I learned copyright, etc for publishing, I was taught that in US only you register your copyright after publication, but you only had a 5 year window to register. And you had to register before lawsuits. The rest of the world used the date the typed story, handwritten pages, etc was written.
Is the 5 year limit to register done away with? Or still in place?

[Lynn]

If you have the money, go ahead and register your work. You can't imagine how much I'm kicking myself for not, right now. Anthropic is settling (supposedly) their case, and if it settles, the only people who qualify for the class certified in that case by the judge are authors who registered their work *before* the work was pirated and infringed by Anthropic.

So, although I know I have 19 books in the db they used, that were probably pirated, I'm out. I didn't register back then and so I will be moving on with my life and not partaking of some potential future settlement. :D

Therefore, my advice is register early if you can, and then don't think about it again unless you have to.

[Bill Hiatt]

When I learned copyright, etc for publishing, I was taught that in US only you register your copyright after publication, but you only had a 5 year window to register. And you had to register before lawsuits. The rest of the world used the date the typed story, handwritten pages, etc was written.
Is the 5 year limit to register done away with? Or still in place?

You have to register fairly fast (three months) to be able to claim punitive damages in a lawsuit. Otherwise, I don't believe there is any limit on when you can copyright something. I find no evidence of a deadline after which you can't register.

[Post-Doctorate D]

You have to register fairly fast (three months) to be able to claim punitive damages in a lawsuit.

Isn't the wording "or"?  That is, you have to register within 3 months OR before infringement occurs.  If that's the case, if infringement occurs within 60 days, you'd be okay as long as you register within those 3 months of first publication.  Alternatively, and this is where the question is, if you wait five years to register but no infringement has occurred yet, are you still covered?  After all, you are registering before infringement occurred.

[Lynn]

That's my point, register early and then you don't have to worry about any of that. I was just referencing the fact that in the class action lawsuit related to Anthropic, the class was certified and you must have registered your copyright before the infringement happened to be part of the class, so anyone who did not register before Anthropic infringed it is not going to be able to be part of the settlement or the lawsuit class. Nothing more.

My main point was that like several of you I used the would I be able to sue someone or want to sue someone question to decide whether to register my copyrights early, and I chose not to. But then something like the Anthropic case comes up and you realize that maybe you should have registered anyway LOL. Hindsight...

[Hopscotch]

I register for copyright on all my books.

Same here.  As D said earlier, it's cheap insurance.  Better to have and not need than to need and not have.

You insure your car against theft, don't you?  So insure your IP with a copyright registration.  Do it formally and, as Bill said, it's done.  And it's cheap compared to other costs in producing a book for sale.  Thus endeth the debate.

[MattT]

To copyright, or not to copyright. that is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer, the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Or to take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them. To die-to sleep, No more; and by a sleep to say we end the heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks that flesh is heir to: 'tis a consummation Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep; to sleep, perchance to dream of my own book series under my own copyright. That is the dream!

Okay I butchered it, but you get the point. This whole thread has a lot of different opinions. Alas, which is the right one?

[Post-Doctorate D]

This whole thread has a lot of different opinions. Alas, which is the right one?

Look at the facts.

The fact is that, if you are in the U.S. or have any concern that you may one day need to file a copyright infringement lawsuit in the U.S., you need to register your copyright within three months of first publication or before infringement has taken place in order to get the maximum benefits of copyright protection.  That registered copyright gives you the opportunity to collect statutory damages (and not just actual damages that you will have to prove in court) as well as the ability to collect attorneys' fees from the infringer.

Those are facts.

Now, it has been argued that it is a waste if you are unable to afford a copyright infringement lawsuit.  Examine that closely.  Maybe you can't afford to bring a lawsuit today, but what happens if your books take off and, in the future, you can afford to do so?  If your works have already been infringed upon and you didn't register the copyright beforehand, any lawsuit will be more expensive for you.  You will be responsible for your attorneys' fees and you will lose out on statutory damages and be limited to whatever actual damages you are able to prove.

Again, it's like an insurance policy.  Now, there's a chance you might never need to use that insurance policy.  On the other hand, if you do, do you want to be without it, especially considering the benefits it provides over not having it?

[MattT]

This whole thread has a lot of different opinions. Alas, which is the right one?

Look at the facts.

The fact is that, if you are in the U.S. or have any concern that you may one day need to file a copyright infringement lawsuit in the U.S., you need to register your copyright within three months of first publication or before infringement has taken place in order to get the maximum benefits of copyright protection.  That registered copyright gives you the opportunity to collect statutory damages (and not just actual damages that you will have to prove in court) as well as the ability to collect attorneys' fees from the infringer.

Those are facts.

Now, it has been argued that it is a waste if you are unable to afford a copyright infringement lawsuit.  Examine that closely.  Maybe you can't afford to bring a lawsuit today, but what happens if your books take off and, in the future, you can afford to do so?  If your works have already been infringed upon and you didn't register the copyright beforehand, any lawsuit will be more expensive for you.  You will be responsible for your attorneys' fees and you will lose out on statutory damages and be limited to whatever actual damages you are able to prove.

Again, it's like an insurance policy.  Now, there's a chance you might never need to use that insurance policy.  On the other hand, if you do, do you want to be without it, especially considering the benefits it provides over not having it?

I'm just going to buy the copyright, why take that risk if hearsay is wrong?

[TimothyEllis]

The AI discussion has been removed from here, and sent to the public Bot area. Please do not bring up the subject here again. Continue it on the other thread.