I need a Proof/Beta Reader for my Christian Fantasy series - I can pay!

[MattT]

Greetings Fellow Writers and Readers,

My name is Matt. I'm a newcomer here and a New Author. A first-time author; but not new to writing. I write a lot on Quora and I have written an entire saga of 12 books across 4 Trilogies; all aligned with the same group of adventurers and the same story overall, deeply seeded in my own world building and faith. The reason I am asking directly in a post, is because its a Christian Fantasy-Fiction Saga, very similar to J.R.R Tolkien and C.S. Lewis. But, unlike their stories, I point directly to Jesus Christ as the ultimate hero and God of the story and I don't shy away from using Bible verses or incorporate teachings in my story. Its very thick with this theme and I realize that not all proofreaders would be open to that level of depth in narrative and category. There is also a lot of war and combat, swordplay and supernatural events; like Angels and Demons. Its not preachy, but its not metaphor either. Its direct. In the first book alone, I use over 200 bible verses to use in the narrative. And so I am asking this way again, because I realize its not everyone's cup of tea. I don't want to alienate anyone who might take on the proofread.

I don't believe I need spelling or grammar checks, I have spent a lot of time polishing and strengthening the grammar and narrative over the last few months, so I'm very confident in that. What I do need is for someone to make sure my story has continuity and ties into each chapter, and each book into the next book. I also need help formatting. It was remarkably hard, but also rewarding to write about these same characters throughout the story, adding some along the way. So, I'm confident in the depth and grammar of my story, but I am not entirely sure it all connects as it should.

I'm happy to pay, flat rates are easier for me. But, I'm open to whatever it will take to fairly proofread and compensate for time. I'm open to editing suggestions and even changing parts to make sure it connects. Believe me, I am well-aware of the market and how pointing directly to a deity; is often seen as taboo or not marketable. But, this for me, is less about earning money and more about impact. As I'm now retired, I spend most of my time as a Missionary and Christian Apologist, so I would like to find a proofreader who is a Christian/Catholic or even Jewish, or at least open to reading deeply Christian Fantasy-fiction, without prejudice. So if you think that would be you as a proofreader or beta reader, then I'd love to hear from you. My first book is 86k words, the first trilogy is 311k words total.

Thank you for your time.

Warm Regards,
Matt Thomson

[TimothyEllis]

I'm not your target audience, but....

Send me the first 500 words in PM.

I often reject books that fast, so it's a test of if you'd get a sample read from me if I was browsing. [The sample is the first 10%.]

Books often sink or swim based on the first page.

[TimothyEllis]

That read reasonably well, and didn't bounce me out at all.

You only need a beta reader if you're not sure the story works, or if there might be something wrong with the main character.

I've only used one once, and that was half way through a book, where I was worried the MC was not likeable.

The Beta reader, who I found at an author event, said the book was good, and to finish it. It turned out to be my second best performing book ever, with the sequel I hadn't thought of doing then being the first.

But that was all I needed. The Beta reader confirmed the character was good and the story worked, and that was confirmed in the first dozen reviews, which all said they loved the character and story, but hated the ending, and demanded either a sequel or a trilogy. They got a trilogy.

So if all you need is confirmation, then use a Beta reader. But if you're happy with it yourself, it's probably not necessary. I used one because I wasn't sure.

As far as the read goes, we don't use scenes.

My preference is when the scene changes, so does the chapter, but I get you have a structure there.

So instead of the scene change words, you need something like *  *  *. The titles are probably not necessary either.

Afterthought: The editing and proofing is good. No goofs detected, and I'm always in editor mode so I spot them.

It just needs the scenes cleaned up.

[Lorri Moulton]

Matt, that's high praise from Timothy.  Well done! 

[MattT]

That read reasonably well, and didn't bounce me out at all.

You only need a beta reader if you're not sure the story works, or if there might be something wrong with the main character.

I've only used one once, and that was half way through a book, where I was worried the MC was not likeable.

The Beta reader, who I found at an author event, said the book was good, and to finish it. It turned out to be my second best performing book ever, with the sequel I hadn't thought of doing then being the first.

But that was all I needed. The Beta reader confirmed the character was good and the story worked, and that was confirmed in the first dozen reviews, which all said they loved the character and story, but hated the ending, and demanded either a sequel or a trilogy. They got a trilogy.

So if all you need is confirmation, then use a Beta reader. But if you're happy with it yourself, it's probably not necessary. I used one because I wasn't sure.

As far as the read goes, we don't use scenes.

My preference is when the scene changes, so does the chapter, but I get you have a structure there.

So instead of the scene change words, you need something like *  *  *. The titles are probably not necessary either.

Afterthought: The editing and proofing is good. No goofs detected, and I'm always in editor mode so I spot them.

It just needs the scenes cleaned up.

Thank you! I am in the process of going through everything and removing the scenes. I only kept them as a means of organizing my work. But, can I keep the subtitles? That way I know what chunk of story that I'm on? Is that going to be an issue for readers, do you think? I see that you said that they're not necessary, but they're all well thought-out and apply to that chunk of writing. So do they have to be removed?

[MattT]

That read reasonably well, and didn't bounce me out at all.

You only need a beta reader if you're not sure the story works, or if there might be something wrong with the main character.

I've only used one once, and that was half way through a book, where I was worried the MC was not likeable.

The Beta reader, who I found at an author event, said the book was good, and to finish it. It turned out to be my second best performing book ever, with the sequel I hadn't thought of doing then being the first.

But that was all I needed. The Beta reader confirmed the character was good and the story worked, and that was confirmed in the first dozen reviews, which all said they loved the character and story, but hated the ending, and demanded either a sequel or a trilogy. They got a trilogy.

So if all you need is confirmation, then use a Beta reader. But if you're happy with it yourself, it's probably not necessary. I used one because I wasn't sure.

As far as the read goes, we don't use scenes.

My preference is when the scene changes, so does the chapter, but I get you have a structure there.

So instead of the scene change words, you need something like *  *  *. The titles are probably not necessary either.

Afterthought: The editing and proofing is good. No goofs detected, and I'm always in editor mode so I spot them.

It just needs the scenes cleaned up.

Would you mind reading a Blacksmith Forging 'scene' from one of my early books? Its one of my favorite written pieces of my whole saga and I kind of want some feedback on it, without tying someone into the whole story. Actually, its the entire 11th chapter of my 2nd book Iron Sharpens Iron. I'd love to get some professional feedback on the chapter and how it plays out? There are some bible verses, but they're tied to the story.

[TimothyEllis]

Thank you! I am in the process of going through everything and removing the scenes. I only kept them as a means of organizing my work. But, can I keep the subtitles? That way I know what chunk of story that I'm on? Is that going to be an issue for readers, do you think? I see that you said that they're not necessary, but they're all well thought-out and apply to that chunk of writing. So do they have to be removed?

Subtitles generally go at the beginning of a new chapter.

So if you changed chapters for each one, and put that under the chapter number, no-one would question it at all.

But just sticking them in the middle of a chapter? I'm not sure that works.

So there's probably a choice there. More chapters or less subtitles?

How long are your average chapters btw?

[MattT]

Thank you! I am in the process of going through everything and removing the scenes. I only kept them as a means of organizing my work. But, can I keep the subtitles? That way I know what chunk of story that I'm on? Is that going to be an issue for readers, do you think? I see that you said that they're not necessary, but they're all well thought-out and apply to that chunk of writing. So do they have to be removed?

Subtitles generally go at the beginning of a new chapter.

So if you changed chapters for each one, and put that under the chapter number, no-one would question it at all.

But just sticking them in the middle of a chapter? I'm not sure that works.

So there's probably a choice there. More chapters or less subtitles?

How long are your average chapters btw?

On the short side, 7k words, on the high side 25k words. Usually between those. The chapter I wanted you to read is like just over 7k, so its one of my shorter chapters.

[TimothyEllis]

On the short side, 7k words, on the high side 25k words. Usually between those. The chapter I wanted you to read is like just over 7k, so its one of my shorter chapters.

We obviously don't have the same definition of the word 'short'

My average is 1200 words per chapter.

Long chapters have a slow down effect on reading. Short chapters have a speed up effect on reading. I write a rollicking yarn, so I go for speed of narrative, rather than the slow march towards the ending. Sort of thing.

A 25k chapter is way too long. IMHO.

I'd be recommending you change chapter every time one of those subtitles happens. Then to maintain your numbering thing, maybe introduce an extra level to it, so that every 'group' gets an over title or something extra. Maintain the under meaning, but with an extra level to it.

If your chapters are longer than 3000 words, then you're narrative is going to have to be very compelling to hold people. At least, that's my opinion. Others will disagree.

Ok, here's a question: Can you read a full chapter out of your books in a single sitting? No break, just a complete read without even wanting a break? If no, then it's too long.

[MattT]

On the short side, 7k words, on the high side 25k words. Usually between those. The chapter I wanted you to read is like just over 7k, so its one of my shorter chapters.

We obviously don't have the same definition of the word 'short'

My average is 1200 words per chapter.

Long chapters have a slow down effect on reading. Short chapters have a speed up effect on reading. I write a rollicking yarn, so I go for speed of narrative, rather than the slow march towards the ending. Sort of thing.

Yeah I can read 3-5 chapters in a single sitting.

A 25k chapter is way too long. IMHO.

I'd be recommending you change chapter every time one of those subtitles happens. Then to maintain your numbering thing, maybe introduce an extra level to it, so that every 'group' gets an over title or something extra. Maintain the under meaning, but with an extra level to it.

If your chapters are longer than 3000 words, then you're narrative is going to have to be very compelling to hold people. At least, that's my opinion. Others will disagree.

Ok, here's a question: Can you read a full chapter out of your books in a single sitting? No break, just a complete read without even wanting a break? If no, then it's too long.

You might be right. But, in order to stick to the structure of my story at 14 chapters per book, 42 chapters per trilogy. I have to make them kind of long. But, you're probably right.

Yes, I read 3-5 chapters in a single sitting. But, I read a whole lot as an academic and someone who just likes books.

If you want, I can send you the whole 11th chapter of my 2nd book. That one, I'm particularly proud of.

Why don't I send you that chapter and you can tell me if it gets boring?

[TimothyEllis]

You might be right. But, in order to stick to the structure of my story at 14 chapters per book, 42 chapters per trilogy. I have to make them kind of long. But, you're probably right.

Yes, I read 3-5 chapters in a single sitting.

So redefine the trilogy.

Bring each book down to 65k, which is less than 5k per chapter on average.

Or as I said, you add in a 3rd level to that. So each group of 14 chapters falls into something else.

Or shift it sideways. 14 chapters per part, 42 chapters per book, something.

[MattT]

You might be right. But, in order to stick to the structure of my story at 14 chapters per book, 42 chapters per trilogy. I have to make them kind of long. But, you're probably right.

Yes, I read 3-5 chapters in a single sitting.

So redefine the trilogy.

Bring each book down to 65k, which is less than 5k per chapter on average.

Or as I said, you add in a 3rd level to that. So each group of 14 chapters falls into something else.

Or shift it sideways. 14 chapters per part, 42 chapters per book, something.

Yeah I was thinking I can do 42 chapters a book. I really just like 14, because its the same structure as the biblical generations between important people/events. 14x3 is 42. And from Abraham to Jesus Christ is 42 generations, separated by 3 sets of 14 per major event. So there is a reason for my madness. But, I was told 100k words is perfectly acceptable for a book.

Maybe I'm writing Epics for each book?

[TimothyEllis]

You might be right. But, in order to stick to the structure of my story at 14 chapters per book, 42 chapters per trilogy. I have to make them kind of long. But, you're probably right.

Yes, I read 3-5 chapters in a single sitting.

So redefine the trilogy.

Bring each book down to 65k, which is less than 5k per chapter on average.

Or as I said, you add in a 3rd level to that. So each group of 14 chapters falls into something else.

Or shift it sideways. 14 chapters per part, 42 chapters per book, something.

Yeah I was thinking I can do 42 chapters a book. I really just like 14, because its the same structure as the biblical generations between important people/events. 14x3 is 42. And from Abraham to Jesus Christ is 42 generations, separated by 3 sets of 14 per major event. So there is a reason for my madness. But, I was told 100k words is perfectly acceptable for a book.

Maybe I'm writing Epics for each book?

100k is a good length, but with the sort of numbers you're talking about, it's also not a number that fits.

3 parts to a book, each with 14 chapters, for 42 per book, coming out around 65k to 100k each, should work.

[MattT]

You might be right. But, in order to stick to the structure of my story at 14 chapters per book, 42 chapters per trilogy. I have to make them kind of long. But, you're probably right.

Yes, I read 3-5 chapters in a single sitting.

So redefine the trilogy.

Bring each book down to 65k, which is less than 5k per chapter on average.

Or as I said, you add in a 3rd level to that. So each group of 14 chapters falls into something else.

Or shift it sideways. 14 chapters per part, 42 chapters per book, something.

Yeah I was thinking I can do 42 chapters a book. I really just like 14, because its the same structure as the biblical generations between important people/events. 14x3 is 42. And from Abraham to Jesus Christ is 42 generations, separated by 3 sets of 14 per major event. So there is a reason for my madness. But, I was told 100k words is perfectly acceptable for a book.

Maybe I'm writing Epics for each book?

100k is a good length, but with the sort of numbers you're talking about, it's also not a number that fits.

3 parts to a book, each with 14 chapters, for 42 per book, coming out around 65k to 100k each, should work.

Yeah, I'll probably switch it up. 14 Chapters is kind of lean, but doesn't really describe the full story per header. My very first book was 68k then it bumped up to 100k and my longest book is 175k. But, I probably will do that, 14 isn't enough to really justify all those subtitles.

[Post-Doctorate D]

My average is 1200 words per chapter.

I guess I'm closer to MattT's idea of "short."  1200 words is roughly 4 pages.  And, that's your average?  So some are even less than that?

[TimothyEllis]

My average is 1200 words per chapter.

I guess I'm closer to MattT's idea of "short."  1200 words is roughly 4 pages.  And, that's your average?  So some are even less than that?

Shortest chapter was a single sentence.

Longest one is about 3000.

These days I usually go early 50's for chapters in 65k.

But I work on when the focus changes, the chapter changes, however long or short that is.

[PJ Post]

When planning this stuff out, always remember that the 'perfect' is the enemy of the 'good'.

[LilyBLily]

Lisa Scotoline has one-page chapters and they totally work because she's writing suspense. They're very dramatic. Timothy is absolutely correct that a long chapter bogs down the pace. Pacing is just about everything in a novel, although you might think that story trumps it. Not so. Check out best-selling novels and what you'll routinely discover is superior pacing, not superior story.

A person reading a book is not concerned per se with chapters. They are concerned with narrative. So you should end a chapter (with a bang) when a scene ends. Readers also like natural breaks, so they can turn off the light and go to bed. That's another thing a chapter end signals. Of course we all cheat and salt in some big surprise to make them read the next chapter and stay up too late; it adds to the drama and pushes the story along. 

Thinking that you must have a certain number of chapters and levels and sublevels is too much regulation of a kind that a reader simply will not care about. The reader is not counting your chapters and neither should you. The story should flow, and breaking it into chapters helps the flow. You might think otherwise. Perhaps you have a very tense scene that goes on and on and on. You might ask yourself why it does and what its natural rhythm is. Are there multiple moments when the scene could break? Why does it take 25k to tell this part of your story, and why can't it be in 5k chapters? That's a decent chapter length and not uncommon, 20 pages of manuscript at 250 words a page.

Above all, don't be doctrinaire about chapters/scenes. Incorporate breaks where they will help your flow. Incorporate scene-setting information as subheads, such as: Chapter 12, Las Vegas, 3 a.m.

You may not want to do books as short as 65k, but 100k makes a substantial read without being an enormous commitment. Not every reader wants a doorstop.

[Post-Doctorate D]

Yeah I was thinking I can do 42 chapters a book. I really just like 14, because its the same structure as the biblical generations between important people/events. 14x3 is 42. And from Abraham to Jesus Christ is 42 generations, separated by 3 sets of 14 per major event. So there is a reason for my madness. But, I was told 100k words is perfectly acceptable for a book.

IMHO, don't let people harsh your mellow.  Too many people don't try neat or creative things, like your 14x3 structure, because they get talked out of it.  And then, too often, the end result is a homogenized Borg-ified book that anyone could have written that is practically indistinguishable from similar books in its genre.  I mean, if mediocrity is the the river you want to float your boat on, by all means grab your paddle and row, row, row your boat.

Otherwise, if you want to do something different, like your 14x3 structure, find a way to make it work.  The readers that know or figure it out will appreciate it, especially in your genre.  It's like a giant Easter egg staring them straight in the face that only some will see.  But those that see it will no doubt appreciate it.  And the readers that don't care won't care one way or the other, right?

[alhawke]

Just to add my own thoughts over chapter length. I personally have no rule on the length of my chapters. It's whether it works or not. Some chapters have been one paragraph. Others have been forty pages. My rule, if there is one, is whether it moves. If a chapter moves and you can't put it down, I don't think it matters how long it is. If it's descriptive and slow (sometimes a nice transition) you might run the risk of the reader putting it down... The death of a book is if a reader puts your book down... for good. But, honestly, I've never thought of chapter lengths myself.

And don't forget about using chapter breaks. Sometimes you don't need an entire new chapter. Other times, it helps with effect if the reader has to turn to see what happens next.

[Bill Hiatt]

I've started moving toward shorter chapters as I've gone along, though initially I was thinking pages rather than words (which actually doesn't work as well in a word processor, unless the page size and margins are set up to mimic a paperback book.

Initially, I was going for a max of ten pages. If the earlier estimate (1200 words to a page) is correct, that would have been a max of 12,000, but since I was aiming more at an average of seven than hitting the max every time, that would have been 8400. More recently, I'm thinking that's perhaps too long.

When I started Substack serialization, the goal was to avoid having the post (which would usually be a chapter in a serial) get truncated in email (with a click-to-read-more at the end). Posts over over 6,000 words get into the danger zone, so that would be a functional maximum. Occasionally, posts would come close to that (usually the first part of a serial or the last). Most of the time, they'd be in the 1,000 to 3,000 range.

But as far as chapter breaks go, I follow the architectural maxim, "Form follows function." In other words, the chapter breaks must ultimately be determined by natural break points in the narrative, not forced into a length formula. If you're serializing or trying to keep people reading in a regular novel, it helps to end at a suspenseful point, so for me, that's one determiner of a break point. Since I've been writing with that in mind for some time, it's not hard to make that happen for a reasonable length chapter. It would be harder to take an preexisting piece and do that with it.

On the 42-chapter model, Post-Doctorate-D has a good point about not wanting to borgify things. However, the imitation of biblical structure in this case feels a lot like it's an author thing more than a reader thing--something an author will know is there but a reader will probably miss unless it's explicitly pointed out. There's nothing wrong with it being an author thing--unless enforcing it hinders the reader's experience.

I'll end on a funny story. One of my books has a Hitchc*ck moment--a brief appearance by me as a character. (Well, it's actually a shapeshifter pretending to be me, so I guess, only semi-Hitchc*ck.) The character is called Mr. H, teaches English at the high school where I used to teach--and where the scene is set--and matches my physical description. A number of people who knew me read that book and missed that entirely. Even people who read my bio might have at least wondered about it, but as far as I can tell, no one did. It tickled me but was lost on my audience completely.



   

[PJ Post]

Be wary of formulas, they typically clash with creativity.

[Post-Doctorate D]

But as far as chapter breaks go, I follow the architectural maxim, "Form follows function." In other words, the chapter breaks must ultimately be determined by natural break points in the narrative, not forced into a length formula. If you're serializing or trying to keep people reading in a regular novel, it helps to end at a suspenseful point, so for me, that's one determiner of a break point. Since I've been writing with that in mind for some time, it's not hard to make that happen for a reasonable length chapter. It would be harder to take an preexisting piece and do that with it.

On the 42-chapter model, Post-Doctorate-D has a good point about not wanting to borgify things. However, the imitation of biblical structure in this case feels a lot like it's an author thing more than a reader thing--something an author will know is there but a reader will probably miss unless it's explicitly pointed out. There's nothing wrong with it being an author thing--unless enforcing it hinders the reader's experience.

There are, I think, three possibilities here:

• The reader is familiar with Biblical structure and notices
• The reader doesn't notice it
• The reader notices it because it is somehow distracting or otherwise a hindrance to the reader's experience as you wrote

The first case is good.  The second case is no harm, no foul.  The third is the bad case.  But, if done well, the most likely scenarios are 1 or 2 and, honestly, 2 is the most likely.  Regardless, the third situation is the only one that needs to be avoided.  But, if the author can pull it off, it's a win whether readers fall into the first or second camp.

I'll end on a funny story. One of my books has a Hitchc*ck moment--a brief appearance by me as a character. (Well, it's actually a shapeshifter pretending to be me, so I guess, only semi-Hitchc*ck.) The character is called Mr. H, teaches English at the high school where I used to teach--and where the scene is set--and matches my physical description. A number of people who knew me read that book and missed that entirely. Even people who read my bio might have at least wondered about it, but as far as I can tell, no one did. It tickled me but was lost on my audience completely.

I had a main character from one book make a brief appearance as a secondary character in another book in a slightly different genre and my beta reader caught the appearance immediately.

On the other hand, in one of my books, I had a secret message in one of the chapters where the first letter of each paragraph spelled out the message.  To date, no one has picked up on this.  But, to date, no one has mentioned that particular chapter stinks or anything so including the secret message did not hinder the reader's experience.  Also, I kind of forgot about it when editing so the secret message has a typo.  Regardless, someday, I hope, someone will notice it and feel quite pleased with themselves for finding it.  So, win-win.

[alhawke]

I'll end on a funny story. One of my books has a Hitchc*ck moment--a brief appearance by me as a character. (Well, it's actually a shapeshifter pretending to be me, so I guess, only semi-Hitchc*ck.) The character is called Mr. H, teaches English at the high school where I used to teach--and where the scene is set--and matches my physical description. A number of people who knew me read that book and missed that entirely. Even people who read my bio might have at least wondered about it, but as far as I can tell, no one did. It tickled me but was lost on my audience completely.

Sounds pretty fun to put yourself in the book. I love that!

I learned a lot about chapter breaks from Kurt Vonnegut. I loved how he artistically separated out multiple chapter breaks during one of his psychedelic rants in Slaughterhouse Five. It was freeing and, probably, most definitely, broke official chapter rules. I've since mimicked that and used it, quite frequently, in my stories. My books and branding definitely leans towards the weird, so that works well for me.

Thing with breaking the rules, whether chapter or chapter breaks, is this stuff can be disastrous if not done well. Sometimes one has to be very familiar with the rules before treading deep into no-rule territory. But, to me, real art breaks rules quite often. When done well, it can be absolutely wonderful.

[Bill Hiatt]

Yeah, it's fun if anyone else is in on the joke. I think that's easier with celebrities.

Another approach is to make a fan (typically a contest winner, or maybe a paid subscriber on Substack) have the option of being a character. I've never tried it, but it seems to work if you have enough rabid fans. Literary immortality (or at least, recognition until the book is gone)!

[PJ Post]

Form follows emotion - Hartmut Esslinger

[TimothyEllis]

Another approach is to make a fan (typically a contest winner, or maybe a paid subscriber on Substack) have the option of being a character. I've never tried it, but it seems to work if you have enough rabid fans. Literary immortality (or at least, recognition until the book is gone)!

I've used fan names 4 or 5 times now.

Several of them even chose their own call signs.

One of them is a recurring character from series 5.

Another 2 were in 15 novels as secondary characters.