Author Topic: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying  (Read 23288 times)

WriteOn

How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« on: September 18, 2019, 05:38:42 AM »
Someone recommended I read this:

https://medium.com/page-count/how-to-lose-a-third-of-a-million-dollars-without-really-trying-d3c343675aca

Then recommended I read this response:

Chuck Wendig couldn't have responded any better.

http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2019/09/17/how-to-be-a-professional-author-and-not-die-screaming-and-starving-in-a-lightless-abyss/

I'm not sure how an author getting those kinds of advances could really be this clueless. And all the blaming. It was everyone else's fault she blew her money. Granted, where was her agent, but this is how the traditional publishing world sucks authors in.

And seriously, ask some questions! Read some writers' forums. Ask your author friends.

ETA - I forgot to put the link to Chuck Wendig's response. I've now added it. Oops.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 09:34:09 AM by WriteOn »
 
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Arches

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2019, 08:39:33 AM »

I'm not sure how an author getting those kinds of advances could really be this clueless. And all the blaming. It was everyone else's fault she blew her money. Granted, where was her agent, but this is how the traditional publishing world sucks authors in.


It's precisely because she got $375K in two advances that she thought she'd lit a rocket to infinity and beyond. Nothing says success like those six figure deposits in your bank account, or so I hear.

And the traditional publishing system makes it virtually impossible to get real numbers on sales and earnings. Then, when the numbers do come, they're way out of date. I'm not sure that most of us, when surrounded by a network of people who thought of themselves as artists instead of business people, would do much better. It's human nature.
 
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JRTomlin

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2019, 09:27:09 AM »
Only authors think that someone is supposed to hold their hands every step of the way. Does anyone tell teachers or plumbers how to live? No, they are expected to figure it out. "Why didn't someone tell me this and why didn't someone tell me that?" Well, why did she not make it her business to find out -- because it was her business.

She repeatedly mentions doing research but not once apparently did she research the basic facts of life for writers which are, by the way, out there and pretty easy to find. My sympathy, obviously, is very limited.
 
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Denise

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2019, 09:59:44 AM »
She was probably very young.

But now I don't know why she's whining about 20k advances. Geez, write two books a year and do a couple extras on the side. It looks like she's already coaching or whatever.

Indie publishing has the advantage that it forces you to learn the business.
 
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Lynn

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2019, 10:34:39 AM »
Sometimes you don't know the questions you need to ask until you've had a few hard knocks. I feel for her. I think it's good that she's trying to make sure other people don't end up in her situation. I can't fault that.

It's hard to be open and honest about stuff because there's inevitably going to be a bunch of people telling you how stupid you were and how they wouldn't have made the same mistakes.

But we all know how that goes. It's easy to be brilliant when picking apart someone else's mistakes. :D

Don't rush me.
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2019, 11:36:59 AM »
Only authors think that someone is supposed to hold their hands every step of the way. Does anyone tell teachers or plumbers how to live? No, they are expected to figure it out. "Why didn't someone tell me this and why didn't someone tell me that?" Well, why did she not make it her business to find out -- because it was her business.

She repeatedly mentions doing research but not once apparently did she research the basic facts of life for writers which are, by the way, out there and pretty easy to find. My sympathy, obviously, is very limited.
The info is easy for us to find, because we know where to look. Would a debut author necessarily know the right places to look or the right people to trust? I'm not sure. There's a lot of information that's readily available, but not all of it is accurate.

The article does illustrate how much trad publishing has deteriorated. I knew that publishers were increasingly offloading promotion on authors, but a Big Five author getting six-figure advances? She's exactly the kind of person I would have expected to get more publisher support.



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notthatamanda

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2019, 12:28:35 PM »
This struck me, from the second article:

It’s funny, I’ve met with Amazon multiple times under the auspices of, “Tell us how to help authors more.” Arguably because they want to help more than publishers do, making friends of authors directly, beyond publisher relationships — which, ennnh, okay. Still, I always tell them one thing: GIVE AUTHORS MORE DATA. Tell us our sales! Tell us our Kindle sales in particular! Tell us when people quit reading our books! And they say OOH YES GOOD POINT and then it never happens and hahaha good times.)

I guess we have it better than the trad published authors on that point.
 
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LilyBLily

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2019, 01:26:47 PM »
I read a little of her sad story and just couldn't read any more. The truth is, lots of us make mistakes in our lives. I feel for her, but at the same time, I know that the very first thing you do with a seriously large check is pay off all your debt. I also note she drank the Kool-Aid about getting an MFA in writing. You're welcome to argue with me, but chances are that MFA is going to be useless. I believe in education, but not overpriced trade schools that feed to nowhere.   

What an author needs is a very well developed sense of self-protection. A complete lack of trust in anyone helps, too. It's also a good idea to read some of the famous stories about how bestselling authors and genius inventors and so on got screwed over financially. If it could happen to Joe Famous, it could happen to you.

But other than that, eh. We all make our share of stupid choices based on our flawed understanding of the world. 
 
 
 
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TimothyEllis

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Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2019, 01:54:58 PM »
Any last illusions I had that being Indie was not better than trad, just got blown away.

Ok, stupid doing stupid, call what happened to her what it was.

But, now I also understand why a lot of medium publishers have been going down the last couple of years, which was highlighted in another thread here. If they are really offering that much in advances, and cant see the books wont earn them back in advance, the publishers are also stupid doing stupid.

At least with us Indies, its a month by month thing and we can see our numbers.

Sad for her, but serious WTF?

I've had 3 great performing books out of 27, and I did pay off the mortgage first with them. Now I'm in 20booksto50k territory writing for my fans, and so generating the basics. Doing my first promo in 18 months next weekend. But the basics from 27 books and each new release nudge, is nicely supplying what I need to live on without any form of panic setting in. Couple more books to do, and then I start on something new to write.

But, yeah, trad publishing is seriously f*cked up, and I dont understand why so many people think its the only path.
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dgcasey

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Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2019, 03:46:15 PM »
She reads a lot like those lottery winners that win a few million and then are declaring bankruptcy a few years later. Spend spend spend even through there is no promise of more money in the future.
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Simon Haynes

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2019, 03:59:55 PM »
It's a sad tale. I really wish schools taught kids more about money management, dealing with a windfall, that kind of thing. Just the basics on managing finances would be a good start.


I learned from my parents, which is where kids SHOULD learn about money management, but often parents know even less than their kids about these kinds of things. Or the things they know and put into practice are just plain wrong.
 
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Hazard

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2019, 04:58:58 PM »
The progression of this was exactly like that of a lottery winner, which is weird since in part of her article she did the calculations to find her two big advances amounted to what a teacher makes in 4 years. Then why did she get $15 drinks and eat out often. Teachers are asking their students to help provide school supplies, I doubt they are living large.

Read a post on Reddit a few days ago regarding teaching personal finance in school and the person brought up a good point. Kids don't pay attention in class regardless of subject, makes no difference if it's English, history, math, or personal finance.
 

Simon Haynes

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2019, 06:36:23 PM »
Read a post on Reddit a few days ago regarding teaching personal finance in school and the person brought up a good point. Kids don't pay attention in class regardless of subject, makes no difference if it's English, history, math, or personal finance.

I'd agree, except kids are often engaged by something new and different. e.g. an excursion, an author visit, grandparents morning, etc.  If the finance thing was covered in a special presentation, replacing a math class (for example), I bet some would be interested.

As long as they kept the powerpoint slides and pie charts far, far away...


 

VanessaC

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2019, 07:31:05 PM »
This struck me, from the second article:

It’s funny, I’ve met with Amazon multiple times under the auspices of, “Tell us how to help authors more.” Arguably because they want to help more than publishers do, making friends of authors directly, beyond publisher relationships — which, ennnh, okay. Still, I always tell them one thing: GIVE AUTHORS MORE DATA. Tell us our sales! Tell us our Kindle sales in particular! Tell us when people quit reading our books! And they say OOH YES GOOD POINT and then it never happens and hahaha good times.)

I guess we have it better than the trad published authors on that point.

Yeah - as I read that, I was thinking - KDP provides daily sales info for publishers through KDP, so I'm thinking that the problem is not so much with Amazon, as with the publishers ...

I do love a good Wendig rant, though.

All of this made me really glad that, the way things have worked out, I've come to self-publishing with a bit of experience at running my own business, and knowing how quickly things can change (those months where my biggest client was late paying me, and I had tax to pay? Yikes - talk about staring into the abyss). 

A six figure advance would be nice (although - always read the contract!), but I love the control we get self-publishing.

     



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Simon Haynes

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2019, 08:11:37 PM »
If people think the KDP reports are bad, they should try the ones on Kobo.  Updated once a month, about four-eight weeks after the fact if you're lucky, some wierd spreadsheet with an invoice for $0 in the first tab AND they don't even include free downloads!

Every time they send me a survey or whatever I complain about their reporting.



 

notthatamanda

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2019, 08:17:26 PM »
Well, I get so little sales on Kobo I don't really need reports.  Never tried them. :)

But I don't mind the Kdp reports.  In fact, even if they fixed them, to make them inarguably better, the time for me to adjust to the newness of it would be a pain in my butt.  I'm just glad we can get the data as author and publisher, instead of having a publisher keeping that data from me, the author, especially if it's part of the way I get paid.

Is paying royalties something smaller publishers do?  I thought traditional publishing traditionally worked on the pay an advance for the book, then that's it.  Book is it a hit, bigger advance for next book, until the author got popular enough to demand more, possibly royalties per book.  That was the impression I had, maybe I was wrong, maybe it changed, or maybe smaller publishers tried to do things differently and it didn't work. 
 

Simon Haynes

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2019, 08:24:20 PM »
I was with a smaller publisher in Australia. Very low advance, but I got royalties for some years afterwards.

I also had two books picked up by Bastei Lubbe in Germany. Big publisher (think Star Wars, etc), and they paid a much larger advance but I never earned out.

 

notthatamanda

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2019, 08:43:59 PM »
What does "earning out" mean?
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2019, 09:21:50 PM »
What does "earning out" mean?

They dont pay you anything until the number of sales the contract says makes up the advance amount is reached.

Works the same way with audio. They agree to a royalty, but there is a certain number of sales before they start paying the royalty.

If you earned out, it means you reached the number of sales, and they start to actually pay you more.

Is paying royalties something smaller publishers do?  I thought traditional publishing traditionally worked on the pay an advance for the book, then that's it.  Book is it a hit, bigger advance for next book, until the author got popular enough to demand more, possibly royalties per book.  That was the impression I had, maybe I was wrong, maybe it changed, or maybe smaller publishers tried to do things differently and it didn't work. 

Not the way it works, but a high proportion of books never earn out, so the perception of it being that way would be common.

The expectation now is you get an advance, and that's the lot. But it's not what should be happening if the book was really a seller.

The thing is though, the number of sales to reach the threshold for royalty payments is weighted in the publishers direction. So they are making something if the book does near the threshold, but doesn't cross it.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 09:25:07 PM by TimothyEllis »
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notthatamanda

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2019, 09:30:43 PM »
Okay, I get it.  Thanks for the explanation.
 

Denise

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2019, 10:41:53 PM »
One thing the author doesn't mention (and might not know) is that high advances come with their share of risk.

When the publisher gives an author high advances, they expect a large amount of sales. If the sales don't come, they're quick to drop the author. It's super common! No idea how she didn't know it.



But, now I also understand why a lot of medium publishers have been going down the last couple of years, which was highlighted in another thread here. If they are really offering that much in advances, and cant see the books wont earn them back in advance, the publishers are also stupid doing stupid.


But the way trad publishing is that they'll lose on nine authors and earn out on one. It's a terrible system for the midlisters.

Years back I went to a conference for bands and musicians. An experienced producer told me something I'll never forget:

"Record companies aren't interested in selling. They are interested in finding the new hit." He explained that it was the reason why they dropped moderately but steady selling artists, for example.

Well, record companies have gone down the drain, but the logic is the same for big publishers.

It's Las Vegas, baby! They want the new "insert hot name here", and they'll place bets. They'll lose often, but considering how they dominate some markets (bookstores, for example), they are still winning enough to keep playing.

This is big 6 logic, there are exceptions in smaller publishers and imprints. Anyway, if you understand that it's about betting, some bizarre behaviours make more sense.

Why would they not market a book series for which they paid a quarter million? It could be because circumstances changed and they realized it's not a hot bet, or they have a hotter bet to which they're directing their resources. Maybe they have only so many books in a genre, and they can't market them all equally. They'll focus on the ones that they believe can hit the jackpot.

The company always wins. Out of so many bets, a few are going to make it. There are only a handful of big 6 publishers and the big hits are still coming from them, with few exceptions. The individuals are screwed (including acquisitions editors, agents, not to mention authors, of course).

The growth if indie publishing could eventually change the scene. 

« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 11:06:27 PM by Denise »
 
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notthatamanda

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2019, 11:00:37 PM »
I wonder if the success of Fifty Shades prompted the formation of more small publishers or if more of them decided to bet the farm that they could repeat that.
 

LilyBLily

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2019, 11:11:04 PM »
Windfall money can make people act very stupidly. No personal finance course is going to teach people how to handle it.

We are the smallest publishers of all, and we all know not to bet the farm, not to go into credit card debt to pay our suppliers or ad costs, and not to count on every book being a major hit. Too bad some of the smaller publishers don't understand basic math.

Most small businesses fail. We are swimming against the tide expecting to produce profits. Yet if we keep a laser focus on money in versus money out, we can keep our heads above water while we also pursue the dream of the big score.

 
 
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123mlh

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2019, 11:32:24 PM »
The company always wins. Out of so many bets, a few are going to make it.

This is how venture capital works, too. You invest in ten companies, two will be stellar, two will be horrible, the other six will be eh. It's the two stellar out of ten that make it all work and they accept that those are the odds they're working with.
 
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TimothyEllis

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Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2019, 11:35:54 PM »
The company always wins. Out of so many bets, a few are going to make it.

This is how venture capital works, too. You invest in ten companies, two will be stellar, two will be horrible, the other six will be eh. It's the two stellar out of ten that make it all work and they accept that those are the odds they're working with.

You know, I'm tempted to say this is how it used to work.

We're in the age of stagnation economics now, and working only so-so, is no longer the same as working meh used to be. The barely working is now as bad as not working in economic terms, because there is no longer any margin for error.
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Simon Haynes

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2019, 11:37:51 PM »
Publishers gauge the success of a book/series on the preorders they get from bookstores and the big chains. If those outlets don't bite, or their orders don't meet a certain expectation, the series can be considered dead before a reader has even bought the first copy.

An author doesn't recover from that. They have to get a new pen name and start over.

Trad pub is truly brutal. As the author of a long series (= more than 3 books), I discovered first-hand what it's like when a publisher is trying to push book 4 to retail outlets after books 1-3 have all disappeared from shelves. The publisher and I terminated my contract by mutual agreement when I wanted to write book 5 and they knew they couldn't sell it.

 
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TimothyEllis

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Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2019, 11:47:10 PM »
Trad pub is truly brutal.

And yet Quora is full of people all wanting to know how to be trad published.

And full of trad published authors poopooing being Indie.
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LilyBLily

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2019, 12:23:13 AM »
Trad pub is truly brutal.

And yet Quora is full of people all wanting to know how to be trad published.

And full of trad published authors poopooing being Indie.

And casinos are full of people hoping to win a million bucks at slots.

 
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Simon Haynes

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2019, 01:39:53 AM »
Trad pub is the holy grail to many, especially those who seek recognition and a big payday up front.

If you're looking at a 10- or 20-year career plan, it doesn't make sense. Not unless you can absolutely positively get your rights reverted after the publisher has had 2-3 years to milk what they can from a particular title.

I was lucky, because my contract came about before ebooks were a thing, and I managed to get my rights back without having to worry what 'still in print' really meant.

I'd suggest Trad Pub is wonderful for the top 1-3%, and a grind for the rest.
 

Lorri Moulton

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2019, 01:40:17 AM »
Some authors enjoy the marketing/business side of publishing.  I'm one of them.  I may never make the big bucks, but I decide what I write, how I promote it, and when I want to make changes. 

Being able to pivot quickly, if/when the market changes, can be a huge advantage.



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Joe Vasicek

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2019, 02:07:51 AM »
If I made a third of a million dollars in a book advance, I would pay down the house and buy a rental property. Cashflow baby!  :cool:
 
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Arches

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2019, 02:16:21 AM »
If I made a third of a million dollars in a book advance, I would pay down the house and buy a rental property. Cashflow baby!  :cool:

That's what we all would like to think we'd do, be money smart. But the experience with lottery winners shows that most people aren't that disciplined. They'll have a hell of a good time until the money is gone.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 07:07:44 AM by Arches »
 

Wonder

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2019, 02:41:26 AM »
On the one hand, I appreciate that she's trying to caution new authors. And it's understandable that an inexperienced person might make mistakes.

But the constant NO ONE MENTORED ME whining was like a drill in my ear. And she gripes about how her publisher never printed bookmarks for her after she got huge advances and a book tour! Cry me a river. And I'm amused by how she seems to be getting more sympathy from traditionally published authors, while indie authors seem to think "Wow. This woman has zero business or financial sense."

Although because she's an "author mentor," this article functions as a clever piece of marketing. So perhaps her business skills have improved? I wish her well.

Wonder

 
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Post-Doctorate D

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2019, 02:45:04 AM »
Although because she's an "author mentor," this article functions as a clever piece of marketing.


Oooooh.  So, it's a marketing piece designed to reach the target audience for her services?
"To err is human but to really foul things up requires AI."
 

Wonder

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2019, 02:56:38 AM »
Although because she's an "author mentor," this article functions as a clever piece of marketing.


Oooooh.  So, it's a marketing piece designed to reach the target audience for her services?

That's my theory.  :icon_mrgreen:
 

Lorri Moulton

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2019, 03:50:05 AM »


Lavender Cottage Books publishes Romance, Fantasy, Fairytales, Mystery & Suspense, and Historical Non-Fiction.
https://lavendercottagebooks.com/

https://annaviolettabooks.com/
 

Joe Vasicek

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2019, 03:55:05 AM »
That's what we all would like to think we'd do, be money smart. But the experience with lottery winners shows that most people are that disciplined. The have a hell of a good time until the money is gone.

Oh, I'm sure I'd be money smart. If I weren't, my wife would kill me!  :hehe
 

Post-Doctorate D

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2019, 04:12:32 AM »
If I made a third of a million dollars in a book advance, I would pay down the house and buy a rental property. Cashflow baby!  :cool:

That's what we all would like to think we'd do, be money smart. But the experience with lottery winners shows that most people are that disciplined. The have a hell of a good time until the money is gone.

I think you meant "aren't that disciplined" otherwise :icon_think:.

But, most people aren't that disciplined, true.  Only a few people win the lottery.  Of those few, most fall into the category of the aforementioned most people, so most lottery winners aren't that disciplined with their winnings.

Fewer people in general are disciplined with money and probably only a minority of those purchase lottery tickets which means that lottery winners are far more likely to fall into the undisciplined group of money handlers than the disciplined group.

Now, of those few people who are disciplined with money and do win the lottery, some will no doubt lose their minds and spend like crazy.  Others will maintain their discipline.  Of the latter group, you probably won't even hear their stories because a lottery winner spending cautiously just doesn't grab the headlines as much as a lottery winner who has lost their home after a year because they spent like wild.  And, probably of those disciplined lottery winners, they are probably putting the money into a trust or something and living off the interest and not the actual winnings.

I think and hope I might be in that minority, but there's only one way to find out.  If any of you is willing to participate in a fiscal responsibility study of people who come into large amounts of money overnight, feel free to send me a couple million dollars and I'll report back the results in a year's time.  Feel free to pool your money and make it a group project.  I can deposit thirty checks as easily as one.  I mean, it would require three deposit tickets, but I'll suffer the inconvenience for science.
"To err is human but to really foul things up requires AI."
 
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123mlh

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2019, 05:07:58 AM »
Dean does the math.

https://www.deanwesleysmith.com/the-math/

And assumes all authors can sell 500 copies per title at $6.99 every year never-ending without any marketing costs.
 
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Post-Doctorate D

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2019, 05:23:46 AM »
And assumes all authors can sell 500 copies per title at $6.99 every year never-ending without any marketing costs.

Reminds me of a survey some bigwig indie did on KB a few years back.  Purportedly wanted to get some good stats on indies to compare to trad authors and show how much better indies were doing, but he only wanted to hear from indies making over x sales/dollars per year.
"To err is human but to really foul things up requires AI."
 
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Arches

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2019, 07:11:12 AM »

I think and hope I might be in that minority, but there's only one way to find out.  If any of you is willing to participate in a fiscal responsibility study of people who come into large amounts of money overnight, feel free to send me a couple million dollars and I'll report back the results in a year's time.  Feel free to pool your money and make it a group project.  I can deposit thirty checks as easily as one.  I mean, it would require three deposit tickets, but I'll suffer the inconvenience for science.

In the name of science, I'll put up the first million for you.
 
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Jeff Tanyard

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2019, 07:28:32 AM »
If I made a third of a million dollars in a book advance, I would pay down the house and buy a rental property. Cashflow baby!  :cool:


I wouldn't want the headaches of being a landlord.  Property destruction, tenants who you evict but who refuse to leave, etc.  I don't know how any landlord does it without having a nervous breakdown.  Instead, I'd invest the bulk of that 375k in things that yielded interest and dividends.  You can get a five-figure income from that principal without taking on any significant risk.

Also, it might be more advantageous to not pay down the house.  It all depends on the interest rates and taxes.  You might be able to run your own personal carry trade vis-a-vis your investment income and your mortgage.


In the name of science, I'll put up the first million for you.


Will you be my friend, too?   :icon_mrgreen:
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Post-Doctorate D

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2019, 07:32:09 AM »
I wouldn't want the headaches of being a landlord.  Property destruction, tenants who you evict but who refuse to leave, etc.  I don't know how any landlord does it without having a nervous breakdown.

Buy a commercial property.  Leasing to a business would be slightly less troublesome than residential tenants.


Will you be my friend, too?   :icon_mrgreen:

Hey, now.  This isn't about friendship!  This is some serious science stuff here, man.  Science!  Not social niceties.  SCIENCE.
"To err is human but to really foul things up requires AI."
 

Denise

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2019, 07:49:18 AM »
Trad pub is truly brutal.

And yet Quora is full of people all wanting to know how to be trad published.

And full of trad published authors poopooing being Indie.

They have to poopoo (this is a new verb for me) being indie.

Many trad authors aren't getting money, so at least they have the status of "having been traditionally published".
Trad publishing needs to remain as a mark of distinction, or else what have they achieved when their books are out of print and the advance is gone?

Although because she's an "author mentor," this article functions as a clever piece of marketing.

Oooooh.  So, it's a marketing piece designed to reach the target audience for her services?

Yeah. All her articles are like that. I'll admit this is smart, it shows vulnerability and past mistakes while at the same time showing off as someone who's "made it". It also generates discussion. It's neat. At the same time, it still shows some naivety, but I guess it might work for authors buying into the trad pub lottery ticket.

Joe Vasicek

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2019, 07:56:26 AM »
Perhaps, but peace of mind is a very real thing too. Being a landlord has its headaches, true, but at least in Utah the laws aren't as lopsidedly against you as they are in California or New York. And with all of the crazy financial shenanigans going on right now, I'd rather own hard assets.
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2019, 08:11:35 AM »
Trad pub is truly brutal.

And yet Quora is full of people all wanting to know how to be trad published.

And full of trad published authors poopooing being Indie.

They have to poopoo (this is a new verb for me) being indie.

Many trad authors aren't getting money, so at least they have the status of "having been traditionally published".
Trad publishing needs to remain as a mark of distinction, or else what have they achieved when their books are out of print and the advance is gone?

Although because she's an "author mentor," this article functions as a clever piece of marketing.

Oooooh.  So, it's a marketing piece designed to reach the target audience for her services?

Yeah. All her articles are like that. I'll admit this is smart, it shows vulnerability and past mistakes while at the same time showing off as someone who's "made it". It also generates discussion. It's neat. At the same time, it still shows some naivety, but I guess it might work for authors buying into the trad pub lottery ticket.
Trad pub works well for the small handful who win the publishing lottery, get a bestseller, a movie deal, etc. The problem is that's all most of the public is aware of. Only occasionally, as in this article, do we hear about a trad pubbed author having serious problems.  Similarly, the only thing a lot of people know about self-publishing is a few well-publicized scandals and maybe a poorly written self-pubbed book they might have seen and then generalized to all self-pubbed writing.

I don't hear this as much on this forum or on Kboards, but I used to hear a lot on the KDP forum that self-publishing is an inferior alternative--an odd position for people who were themselves self-publishing. One poster, a well-regarded formatter rather than an author, insisted that anyone who was a good writer could be trad published if he or she wanted to and was patient (with the implication that that's what we should be doing). Self-publishing under that theory is for lazy and the incompetent. Oddly, a lot of authors echoed that view, including some who had been successful in trad publishing at one time but whose publishers had gradually lost interest.

It's amazing how far different the reality is. Sure, there are lots in people in self-publishing that don't know what they're doing, but I've read many excellent self-published books. If we removed all identifying information from several books, some trad but not household names and some good self-published and asked people to pick which was which based on the content, I doubt people would do any better than random chance in sorting them.

Being an even remotely successful indie is hard work. It's not easier than the trad path. It's just different, and arguably better for many people.


Tickling the imagination one book at a time
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Denise

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2019, 08:15:05 AM »
Dean does the math.

https://www.deanwesleysmith.com/the-math/

And assumes all authors can sell 500 copies per title at $6.99 every year never-ending without any marketing costs.

I think he's just throwing some average numbers. Perhaps 1000 copies of each title a year at 2.99 might be more reasonable. It's really not that much.

He's considering a moderately successful indie author versus a moderately successful trad author. Maybe quite a successful trad author, if they got that deal. He's considering some excellent books who might have gotten good trad deals. I think his numbers are OK. He's not assuming every trad deal consists of $150k either.

I have an issue with his math because he forgets interest. 61k in two years is almost the same as  98k in twenty years. Sorry.

Let's assume a modest 3%/year interest. In eighteen years, 61k becomes 103k. So maybe the moral of the story is that being a moderately successful indie author can equal getting big six-digit deals from big publishers. That is an interesting calculation. 

notthatamanda

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2019, 08:55:10 AM »
Dean does the math.

https://www.deanwesleysmith.com/the-math/

And assumes all authors can sell 500 copies per title at $6.99 every year never-ending without any marketing costs.

He addresses this in the comments:

Scott, you take a deep breath, put them out, ignore all the idiots about advertising and who are in a hurry to make a few bucks, and write. Let your books build. They will average over time far above the 42 per month if you do that, just write, get them out, and let it build. Tell your friends, put it on your web site, that sort of thing, but just let it build naturally. It will happen if you keep working on being a better storyteller at the same time.

 
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j tanner

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2019, 09:22:28 AM »
Dean does the math.

https://www.deanwesleysmith.com/the-math/

I skimmed, but to my eye he included 40%  :icon_eek: taxes for the trade author and for the self-pub author he included 0%  :icon_eek: taxes.

He also priced on the low side of typical for trade, and on the high side for self-pub.

And he assumes a level of self-pub sales without advertising that is at best uncommon.

There's an argument to be made here, but this math is suspect.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 09:28:57 AM by j tanner »
 

j tanner

Re: How To Lose A Third Of A Million Dollars Without Really Trying
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2019, 09:27:59 AM »
But now I don't know why she's whining about 20k advances. Geez, write two books a year and do a couple extras on the side.

The problem is selling two books a year.  Finding a publisher is possible if you can write well in a defined genre, but far from easy. Finding two so you can get books out faster than any one trade publisher wants is lottery odds and can run you into contract issues if you aren't careful in how they're worded.